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With a well-educated, empathetic populace I would definitely agree that legislating common sense public health measures would be counterproductive and unnecessary; but if the numbers these past months have taught us anything it is that large swathes of the American population cannot be relied upon to exercise good judgment or hygiene and therefore there is little else to do than to introduce legislation to coerce the behavior that we cannot rely upon our citizens to do voluntarily. Otherwise we will continue to see the infection and death toll rise.
Our culture is simply ill-equipped to deal with a situation that asks for voluntary, individual sacrifice for the benefit of the collective; it is literally the opposite of the American ethos of rabid individualism. Selfishness is baked into our collective consciousness and millions of preventable infections and 100k+ deaths haven't done anything to change this.
Unfortunately, I totally agree. If men were saints, laws would not be needed. However, we continue to see large numbers of people who do not take the coronavirus seriously.
I refer to those who go to crowded swim parties. I refer to those who insist in standing shoulder to shoulder or elbow to elbow with others in churches, bars, and restaurants. I refer to mobs who demonstrate for political causes. I saw a video the other day of a man who looked in his fifties who did not want to be told he could not enter a store without a mask. He tried to push his way in and was fortunately pushed right out. I refer to crowded conditions at packing plants. I refer to those who refuse to wear masks at public gatherings screaming about masks "take away their liberty".
The ugly side of the American character has been exposed by the coronavirus crisis and it is not pretty. Some people will reject any edict or proclamation telling them what to do. Its less important what they are being told to do than that they reject the principle that anyone can tell them they have to do something.
Other countries do better with the virus because there is more of a sense of community in those places. It doesn't sound crazy in those countries to ask people to act for the "common good".
OK, since there is an abundance of COVID 19 and mask wearing threads; I'll be very clear about the purpose of this thread. To moderators, let me know if this particular topic has been addressed already.
The question here concerns the legal aspect of mandating masks. The primary concern is: When the pandemic ends, next month or next decade, will the rules about wearing masks ever be rescinded?
Think of every law, rule, policy, and ordinance that has been enacted in response to a threat. Be it war, disease, or corruption; and ask yourself: Has any of these ever been repealed or rescinded after the threat had ended?
It seems once a politician has enacted new policy. It just gets forgotten, forever to be left in place under threat of criminal action.
Thoughts?
No, I see these as temporary public health measures, not permanent laws. Until COVID-19 is under control, either by a vaccine or herd immunity, we will probably have to wear masks when going out into a store or an area where we can't effectively distance ourselves.
It could even be that we have to wear masks seasonally in the fall and winter when viruses are rampant, just like many Asian countries have done for years.
But permanent rules and laws mandating mask wearing? No, I wouldn't count on it.
OK, since there is an abundance of COVID 19 and mask wearing threads; I'll be very clear about the purpose of this thread. To moderators, let me know if this particular topic has been addressed already.
The question here concerns the legal aspect of mandating masks. The primary concern is: When the pandemic ends, next month or next decade, will the rules about wearing masks ever be rescinded?
Think of every law, rule, policy, and ordinance that has been enacted in response to a threat. Be it war, disease, or corruption; and ask yourself: Has any of these ever been repealed or rescinded after the threat had ended?
It seems once a politician has enacted new policy. It just gets forgotten, forever to be left in place under threat of criminal action.
Of course things get rescinded, especially when they're inconvenient to the public. Curfews are a perfect example.
What doesn't get "rescinded" is political power, which is why presidential over-reach is so troubling.
I know that many in Asia have been wearing masks regularly well before Covid became a thing. Quite frankly, I wouldn't knock folks if they wanted to continue wearing masks.
I can’t imagine any government official deciding to make this requirement permanent. What purpose would it serve, other than losing the next election?
Well, we've seen in this very thread, examples of posters who extol mask-wearing as a wise and productive habit, during a "regular" flu season. Never mind the coronavirus... it - that is, marks - are proposed as being a judicious remedy and good preventative measure. If this view gains traction, then politicians who seek to codify mask-wearing as a policy, would attract votes from the safety-contingent... and if this contingent becomes large enough, then those votes translate into a winning campaign.
It was not terribly long ago, that drunk-driving was regarded as a minor foible, and something that decent people avoid if possible, but not, say, at the price of getting stranded alone at a bar at night. Then the culture changed, beginning in the 70s and accelerating in the 80s. By 1990, drunk driving came to be a heinous offence. A politician who sought to make drunk-driving a felony, in 1935, would have been widely panned. A politician who did the same in 1985, would be regarded as forward-thinking and a true leader.
It's not far-fetched to expect a similar evolution, with masks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sylentvoyce
...The question is, do you think the government will agree with your stance and take away another personal freedom in the name of safety?
That isn't even a question; it is a certainty. The only question is one of timing and degree. Personal freedom, lost in the name of safety, comes to be regarded as some trite frippery that good and decent people ought to surrender as part of the social contract, as part of the price of having a civilization in the first place. Insistence on the primacy of such freedoms is regarded as being the hallmarks of savages, of brutes unworthy of the privilege of partaking in civilized society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky
Our culture is simply ill-equipped to deal with a situation that asks for voluntary, individual sacrifice for the benefit of the collective; it is literally the opposite of the American ethos of rabid individualism. Selfishness is baked into our collective consciousness and millions of preventable infections and 100k+ deaths haven't done anything to change this.
You're quite right, about "our culture". But it remains to show, that such cultural construct is somehow flawed or morally wrong. In other words, it remains to show, that "the benefit of the collective" is a legitimate benefit at all, let alone, a benefit of such gravity, that "individual sacrifice" is at all merited.
These are not uncomfortable though, the mask I just had to wear when the dewpoint temperature outdoors is akin to Costa Rica is horrible.
There's no getting used to it.
Exactly. A seatbelt for me doesn't bother me while wearing it. Sometimes, I forget I'm even wearing it lol. Plus, it does give you that protection in case you get into a bad accident.
With a mask, I definitely feel it and couldn't wear it for long periods of time, which thankfully, we don't have to.
I've seen this, 'many outweigh the few' argument before. Taking your example; lets expand on it. This disease is only dangerous and deadly to a fraction of people. The individual liberties of the extraordinarily high number of people who will see mild and no symptoms at all outweigh the few who will actually suffer from this simple upper respiratory bug, and the even fewer that will actually die. Not unlike every flu season since time immemorial.
Let's apply the same argument again. 129 thousand deaths, versus 41 million unemployed. The shutdown catered to the health of a few over the future of the many.
My point is that's not a good argument. And its off topic. The question is, do you think the government will agree with your stance and take away another personal freedom in the name of safety?
You cannot possibly know who will be vulnerable. Some younger people are getting really sick. Some kids are getting really sick. And, when the infection rate balloons, the ICUs are taken over with really, really sick people.
I know you feel that you are invulnerable. Well, good for you. Perhaps you will not be horribly sick if you get infected, but perhaps you will. Neither you, nor anyone else really knows.
None of us have unlimited personal liberties. We cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater for kicks, for instance. We cannot slander someone in public. We cannot walk nude down Main Street in the middle of the day. Nor can we sexually abuse children or beat our dogs to death. There are many personal liberties we do not have.
In the case of pandemic, I think wearing masks and staying six feet away from people is not asking a civilized person too much.
But you know, since you feel this way, I want to encourage you to get on a plane and travel somewhere without mask. Walk around a strange city; go to the beach; attend a church service and sing lustily. Feel free. No one will stop you. Maybe you will be fine; maybe not.
None of us have unlimited personal liberties. We cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater for kicks, for instance. We cannot slander someone in public. We cannot walk nude down Main Street in the middle of the day. Nor can we sexually abuse children or beat our dogs to death. There are many personal liberties we do not have.
This is arrantly true. Our liberties are of course circumscribed by many factors, of which the principal one is how our actions harm other people. The mask-advocates are evidently asserting, that an unmasked person, however ostensibly healthy and innocent of any malice or desire to harm, is nevertheless an unwitting participant in a chain of potential harm. Just being human, occupying a physical space, and breathing - are potentially threatening activities. It is therefore reasonable to curtail the threat, by mandating masks.
The counter-argument is lengthy. The outline is that the virus is a naturally occurring malady. We are all, as natural creatures, part of the virus's transmission. While it is noble (if futile - see below) for us to make concerted attempts to break the chain of transmission, to mandate doing so, is hubris. Second, most of the banned behaviors noted by Silibran are crimes of action. We yell "Fire!", we abuse kids, we beat dogs. The one exception is nudity. It is as it were a non-act... the failure to don clothes. It criminalizes the failure to do something "good" (wear clothes), instead of the action of doing something bad (beating, molesting, frightening, insulting,...). As can be surmised from the above, I think that anti-nudity laws are idiotic, and really, much resemble statutes that mandate masks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran
In the case of pandemic, I think wearing masks and staying six feet away from people is not asking a civilized person too much.
What's "too much" is not the asking, but the projection of the full power and majesty of the government, to mandating a certain act... and to the point of this thread, to likely keep this mandate in place permanently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran
But you know, since you feel this way, I want to encourage you to get on a plane and travel somewhere without mask. Walk around a strange city; go to the beach; attend a church service and sing lustily. Feel free. No one will stop you. Maybe you will be fine; maybe not.
Without trying to sound heroic, or even being facetious, all of these things appeal to me. Though a rather strident atheist, I'm now actually well-disposed to becoming a churchgoer, not because suddenly I've found Jesus, but from a desire to make a point.
To be brutally honest, my belief is that we'll all ultimately contract the virus, and perhaps multiple times... that millions of Americans are going to die, and perhaps hundreds of millions of people around the globe. It's akin to the tiresome quip about the expert marksman, who taunts his adversaries: "You can try to run, but all that that means, is that you'll die tired". The implication is that the expert-shot will kill his quarry, no matter what said quarry tries. All that's accomplished by trying to forestall the inevitable, is that one dies tired.
You cannot possibly know who will be vulnerable. Some younger people are getting really sick. Some kids are getting really sick. And, when the infection rate balloons, the ICUs are taken over with really, really sick people.
I know you feel that you are invulnerable. Well, good for you. Perhaps you will not be horribly sick if you get infected, but perhaps you will. Neither you, nor anyone else really knows.
None of us have unlimited personal liberties. We cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater for kicks, for instance. We cannot slander someone in public. We cannot walk nude down Main Street in the middle of the day. Nor can we sexually abuse children or beat our dogs to death. There are many personal liberties we do not have.
In the case of pandemic, I think wearing masks and staying six feet away from people is not asking a civilized person too much.
But you know, since you feel this way, I want to encourage you to get on a plane and travel somewhere without mask. Walk around a strange city; go to the beach; attend a church service and sing lustily. Feel free. No one will stop you. Maybe you will be fine; maybe not.
Thank you for the invite. I have done many of these things. Traveled out of state, had fun without abiding their mandatory quarantine, walked through crowds, stood elbow to elbow with rioters and protesters, all without a mask.
I may get sick, I may not. But as a person who survived severe child abuse, a surprise attack while deployed overseas, another surprise shooting while living in a ghetto neighborhood, and now constant interaction with dangerous criminals as a career: i'm not frightened by covid.
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