I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag, of........................... (money, states, vote)
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Again, nobody is Mandating anything..it is a freedom..say it or don't.The kids in schools have a choice not to participate or to participate. THAT is their freedom of choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deef1
See it is just that mindset that comes that is WRONG! You HAVE the freedom to NOT participate. Don't demand changing what is OUR custom. Those US Patriotic citizens should have the right to KEEP it right where it belongs and has belonged. Don't want to participate DON'T, just leave it the hell alone!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deef1
WHY NOT KEEP IT IN SCHOOL...There is a CHOICE Participate or DON'T! I am PROUD to be a US CITIZEN, AREN'T YOU? So, that was One Vet's suggestion...Let's POLL the Military and their families along with the rest of us. (Set up a POLL on the site let see where it stands)
Why so hostile? There's no need to be loud and rude, this thread has been blissfully void of that.
And as much as one can choose not to participate one is still forcefully subjected to it in an important (mandatory) institution. There's in every way room for a debate on whether of not this should be part of the educators job or not.
You say that those who oppose have the choice not to participate, however, if it were to become that this was taken out of school, you still have the choice whether or not to say the pledge every day. No one is taking that right from you, it's simply transferred onto each independent individual to decide whether or not they wish to do so.
You don't want it to happen and that's perfectly acceptable, you have every right to try and maintain the current way of doing things. What you don't have, is the right to deny other people the same democratic rights that you have.
This isn't a simple matter of do, don't or leave. Do you accept the same logic on things you oppose?
I think your point has been made perfectly clear at this point, if you feel you need to elaborate on it in a civil manner I hope you do so, however, if you plan on continuing a rude confrontational yes/no fight, you might want to consider leaving it be, we all know what you mean by now.
Why so hostile? There's no need to be loud and rude, this thread has been blissfully void of that.
And as much as one can choose not to participate one is still forcefully subjected to it in an important (mandatory) institution. There's in every way room for a debate on whether of not this should be part of the educators job or not.
You say that those who oppose have the choice not to participate, however, if it were to become that this was taken out of school, you still have the choice whether or not to say the pledge every day. No one is taking that right from you, it's simply transferred onto each independent individual to decide whether or not they wish to do so.
You don't want it to happen and that's perfectly acceptable, you have every right to try and maintain the current way of doing things. What you don't have, is the right to deny other people the same democratic rights that you have.
This isn't a simple matter of do, don't or leave. Do you accept the same logic on things you oppose?
I think your point has been made perfectly clear at this point, if you feel you need to elaborate on it in a civil manner I hope you do so, however, if you plan on continuing a rude confrontational yes/no fight, you might want to consider leaving it be, we all know what you mean by now.
Personally, I didn't think I was being hostile, loud OR rude. As you can see from the OR (the caps) are meant for emphasis..not yelling. And I think I am being quite civil. I didn't call names or attack anyone in my posts. I stated that I feel that it should stay and that I am sick and tired of people trying to remove it. That I am proud to be a citizen and the freedom is their choice. Where does that become hostile. Am I not allowed to defend when someone rebutts me? I simply stated to enjoy the chip and their freedom...you are reading more into something than what I said.
Great, if you get my posts, that's a good thing. Sorry if I offended you.
Question is did you serve? I did not serve. Not able. My Father did, as a career fought in the wars and I am proud of what he stood for. I wish I could have, but couldn't for health reasons. And YES...We disagree sobeit! Enjoy your chips and your freedom. I thank my father everyday for the years he gave so that I can say I am free.
U.S.S. Kitty Hawk CV-63, 1 Main Machinery Room(1996-2000 Honorable Discharge)...
Personally, I didn't think I was being hostile, loud OR rude. As you can see from the OR (the caps) are meant for emphasis..not yelling. And I think I am being quite civil. I didn't call names or attack anyone in my posts. I stated that I feel that it should stay and that I am sick and tired of people trying to remove it. That I am proud to be a citizen and the freedom is their choice. Where does that become hostile. Am I not allowed to defend when someone rebutts me? I simply stated to enjoy the chip and their freedom...you are reading more into something than what I said.
Great, if you get my posts, that's a good thing. Sorry if I offended you.
You didn't offend me, but threads have a nasty habit of slipping in to juvenile and silly arguments that's all. The post I was mainly referring to was this:
Quote:
See it is just that mindset that comes that is WRONG! You HAVE the freedom to NOT participate. Don't demand changing what is OUR custom. Those US Patriotic citizens should have the right to KEEP it right where it belongs and has belonged. Don't want to participate DON'T, just leave it the hell alone!
Between the capitals (bold or italic generally work better for emphasis IMO, doesn't seem so "loud"), the exclamation points and phrases like "leave it the hell alone" I think it could easily be read as both angry and somewhat rude.
Either way though, I understand what you mean, I do however disagree, for the reasons I stated in my previous post.
That whether you like it or not, citizens of the US have every right to question what's taught in schools, but you have every right to disagree. Arguments like "shut up or leave" aren't really contributing positively to anything though, as it's not even a relevant scenario.
You didn't offend me, but threads have a nasty habit of slipping in to juvenile and silly arguments that's all. The post I was mainly referring to was this:
Between the capitals (bold or italic generally work better for emphasis IMO, doesn't seem so "loud"), the exclamation points and phrases like "leave it the hell alone" I think it could easily be read as both angry and somewhat rude.
Either way though, I understand what you mean, I do however disagree, for the reasons I stated in my previous post.
That whether you like it or not, citizens of the US have every right to question what's taught in schools, but you have every right to disagree. Arguments like "shut up or leave" aren't really contributing positively to anything though, as it's not even a relevant scenario.
Okay..wait..for clarification...Don't put words in my mouth! Please! Show me the words in a post where it says "shut up or leave". You can't because I didn't say that.
I did say I am tired of the whining. I did refer to leaving if you don't like the customs and I did say leave it the hell alone. Wow, "hell" I don't think I have to sugar coat it. I feel strongly. I believe I said that part just the way I meant it.
Sorry again, if you don't agree, but that is what America is all about...freedom. I kept with the relevant topic to the Ops thread. If I was off task, it is in rebuttal to the post who challenged me. I am glad that you understood what I was saying and I also acknowledged the fact that the counterpost had served in the forces. I don't think I have said or done anything here other than debate a challenge. I won't apologize for that.
You say that those who oppose have the choice not to participate, however, if it were to become that this was taken out of school, you still have the choice whether or not to say the pledge every day. No one is taking that right from you, it's simply transferred onto each independent individual to decide whether or not they wish to do so.
This isn't a simple matter of do, don't or leave. Do you accept the same logic on things you oppose?
No! That isn't what I said. The Pledge to OUR US Flag is a custom of the people who chose to come to America to live together under OUR flag UNITED all together. It's not up for debate to CHANGE THAT. The OP said she was BRAINWASHED because they said the pledge in school. She, nor her children are forced to say the pledge. But she ISN'T going to change it so that MY CHILDREN don't have the option...SOooo NO...it is a US CUSTOM and it should NOT be changed. You have the RIGHT to NOT say it. That is your RIGHT and your FREEDOM. I think that is pretty generous. You have a CHOICE. Say it.or.Don't!
First of all I'm a guy. Also Im not saying change our custom of the pledge. Reread my first post.
The history behind the pledge was that it was first recited at churches by the children; so why not just keep it there?
That's not what my research indicates. At the time he wrote the Pledge, Francis Bellamy was no longer a serving pastor, rather he was assistant to the publisher of The Youth's Companion. The Pledge was conceived as the centerpiece of a secular public school event celebrating the 400 year anniversary of Christopher Columbus' "discovery" of America.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
The history of our Pledge of Allegiance and its writer is fascinating, and I appreciate the motivation this thread has given me to deepen my extant knowledge. The Pledge has become even more meaningful to me, and I will continue to recite it with great hope for the future of my nation, especially now that I have a better understanding of its inspiring content.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 04-24-2010 at 09:14 PM..
Too late, we already do. Kids do not have to say the pledge or even stand anymore. At least in Wake County schools.
I bet they never did. But kids are highly susceptible to peer pressure, and they were probably told that they "had to" do it. Very few kids have the self-confidence to think through their behavior and do what runs against the grain of all the rest of the class. And people who create these kinds of rituals know that, and use it skillfully to reinforce conformity.
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Then I thank you too!
