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The point is, DOES our nation differ from the rest of the world, in the points addressed by the Pledge? There are dozens of countries, maybe a hundred, in which "liberty and justice for all" is practiced to an equal (or better) degree than the USA. Surely, they are all indivisible, and the faithful citizens of every country, with equal justification and evidence, believe they are under God.
So, what is it within the Pledge that sets America apart from the lesser and inferior Norways and Canadas? Or even Mexicos.
It is never necessary to indoctrinate people with the truth.
I'm struggling to understand why a declaration of allegiance to our country and its principles implies superiority. I am committed to honesty, but making a public statement about it isn't an accusation that everybody else is dishonest.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 04-23-2010 at 02:09 PM..
Reason: typo
So today I was in a conversation with my girlfriend about when we were in school we would say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning from 6 years old to 18.
I remembered that we wouldnt question saying the pledge nor would it feel any different than the normal routine of eating breakfast or taking a shower. It was just so repetitious!
And after talking about it, looking back from my viewpoint now as an older and a little wiser adult, see that what we were doing all those years from childhood to young adults really looked like we were being BRAINWASHED. And I say that from the idea that if we were to look at say Russia, or Iran, or Cuba doing this we would certainly say something like, "Wow, they really brainwash them early on to devote themselves to their cause."
Then I got to thinking further that as the free society that we are do we really need to do this? I mean I love my country, and Im pretty sure that so far id rather be here than in the Congo, or South America. Shouldnt we teach our children and people to love their country and pledge allegiance to it by their on free will instead of telling them and forcing them to do so?!?!
I dont know if im right about this, but looking back at it all I just get this creepy feeling about it.
So here is the debate, albeit not necessarily a great one: Should we be forcing school children to say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning or let them make up their own minds?
Well you've got a number of folks who have said in this thread what I would say. The Pledge seems kind of brainwash-ish. For me, prayers are pretty much the same thing. Especially a commonly used prayer, like the Lord's Prayer.
As a kid I'd always stand, put my right hand over my heart, and say The Pledge right along with everyone else. So another Great Debate question would be, What did you think about as you were mouthing The Pledge back in elementary school? For me it was the Moon Pie that was waiting in my official Hoss Cartwright lunchbox.
As a kid I'd always stand, put my right hand over my heart, and say The Pledge right along with everyone else. So another Great Debate question would be, What did you think about as you were mouthing The Pledge back in elementary school? For me it was the Moon Pie that was waiting in my official Hoss Cartwright lunchbox.
LOL, exactly! Someone said 500 times, we said it more like 2,340 times and everyone of those times, with the exception of a few, im sure I was thinking something other than what were mouthing. Im also sure most everyone else was too.
I'm struggling to understand why a declaration of allegiance to our country and its principles implies superiority. I am committed to honesty, but making a public statement about it isn't a accusation that everybody else is dishonest.
Because it's intended to imply superiority. Ask 100 sixth-graders, right after they say the Pledge, "Is the US the greatest country in the world?" See how many of them say what they are being conditioned to say. It has exactly the same purpose as singing "Deutschland über alles" had, and the same net effect.
Because it's intended to imply superiority. Ask 100 sixth-graders, right after they say the Pledge, "Is the US the greatest country in the world?" See how many of them say what they are being conditioned to say. It has exactly the same purpose as singing "Deutschland über alles" had, and the same net effect.
That's typical middle-school ethnocentrism, and it's developmentally appropriate. Most of us outgrow it as age, education, and experience broaden our horizons.
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
This assumes that the government has our (as individuals) best interests at heart. It doesn't. It will always act in its own self-interest. Whatever keeps it in power.
Pretzelsprechte/Jibberish/Folderal
The government cares not a wit about you, other than your billfold.
That's typical middle-school ethnocentrism, and it's developmentally appropriate. Most of us outgrow it as age and experience broaden our horizons.
You'd never know that reading our forums about Mexicans, Muslims, or the Indian call centers. Most of us are still in middle school here. And it's grownups who get all bent out of shape about a political office holder who doesn't wear a US flag lapel pin. If an adult declined to take part in the recitation of the Pledge, he'd start getting anonymous hate mail.
In fact I have a funny anecdote. When I came back to the US with my Canadian wife, she was invited by a co-worker's wife to join a social club. At the first meeting, they recited the Pledge, and my wife just stood there dumbstruck. When queried, she said "I'm Canadian". The response was "Don't Canadians say the Pledge of Allegiance?"
You'd never know that reading our forums about Mexicans, Muslims, or the Indian call centers. Most of us are still in middle school here.
The internet seems to bring out the worst in people. Maybe it's the relative anonymity and lack of accountability. I love your anecdote. And, we wonder where Leno gets his stuff for the Jay-walking segment!
Quote:
And it's grownups who get all bent out of shape about a political office holder who doesn't wear a US flag lapel pin.
Believe it or not, the pin thing doesn't bother me at all; however, if our President failed to recite the Pledge, I would be very concerned.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 04-23-2010 at 02:20 PM..
Does anyone remember the little boy from Cuba who was returned 10 yrs ago to his Cuban dad in Cuba?.
Had he been allowed to remain in the US (Florida) he would have been reciting the "Pledge of Allegiance" today. Would that be be called "Brainwashed or Indoctrination?"
Today he is in Cuba and a youth Communist leader. Would he be considered "Brainwashed or Indoctrinated?"
Both countrys have their own ideology/politics...all a matter of choice...be what it may be.
Does anyone remember the little boy from Cuba who was returned 10 yrs ago to his Cuban dad in Cuba?.
Had he been allowed to remain in the US (Florida) he would have been reciting the "Pledge of Allegiance" today. Would that be be called "Brainwashed or Indoctrination?"
Today he is in Cuba and a youth Communist leader. Would he be considered "Brainwashed or Indoctrinated?"
Both countrys have their own ideology/politics...all a matter of choice...be what it may be.
I don't know if this is your point or not, but it does make it very difficult to distinguish the two countries, doesn't it? It makes me want to repeat my earlier phrase, "It is never necessary to indoctrinate people with the truth."
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