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Old 04-23-2010, 10:40 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,139,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyse View Post
That is exactly what I am saying.

Shouldnt kids learn for themselves whats great about our country instead of you just telling them its great. Let people think for themselves.
Indeed.

Any country that deserves allegiance should not have to force its citizens to pledge it.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,689,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semperarmati View Post
I would say if this is the best you can come up with, toss your PC in the trash and get a slide-rule.

If you are getting bad vibesfeelings etc., about saying the Pledge of Allegience, then I offer you have some serious issues in your command and control center.

You ae only pretty sure you would rather be here.... Are you pretty sure you would rather be healthy than have the flu?

Do you know the meaning of the word Ingrate? Look up the word, then look in a mirror, then look up the word, then look in the mirror into you "get it".
This assumes that the government has our (as individuals) best interests at heart. It doesn't. It will always act in its own self-interest. Whatever keeps it in power.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:43 AM
 
5,747 posts, read 12,060,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
Indeed.

Any country that deserves allegiance should not have to force its citizens to pledge it.
I'd like to know who's being forced.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:45 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,139,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
You can't choose to accept or reject something you don't understand. That's like trying to squeeze water out of a dry sponge.

Plus, I don't think schools force kids to recite the Pledge. In our elementary, one can stand or sit silently during the morning recitation without any chastisement.

And, what's with the "go back to Russia" thing? Where the heck did that come from? I was born and raised in the U.S., as were a dozen or so of the preceding generations of my family and even more prior to that auspicious day in 1776. I am fully entitled to have an opinion about this matter.
I think it rather presumptuous for you to conclude that kids cannot understand what they are saying every morning.

And it isn't relevant anyway.

If you have a classroom of kids reciting all the same text, there is a coercive influence on those that may otherwise choose not to. The SCOTUS has recognized the coercive nature of the public school classroom in school prayer cases already (I think it was Justice O'Connor, I forget the case).

So you are, in a sense, coercing them to participate or if not, they suffer ostracization as a result. That is not a practice that comports with the requirements of the First Amendment in a public school context.

Go back to Russia is a classic catchphrase of right wing loonies, used facetiously here but I think it makes a good point: mandatory pledges are something that communists do, not Americans.

Your opinion runs contrary to constitutional law, and I would submit is actually anti-American.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:46 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,139,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
I'd like to know who's being forced.
Read my post above. In the context of a public school classroom, complete with peer pressure, etc., it is coercive.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:47 AM
 
5,747 posts, read 12,060,239 times
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Please elaborate. How does my opinion run counter to Constitutional law?
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 87,052,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
I think I understand your point. You're concerned that the Pledge is empty of context and therefore meaningless in helping children understand how our nation differs from the rest of the world. So, where and when do you begin the discussion?

.
The point is, DOES our nation differ from the rest of the world, in the points addressed by the Pledge? There are dozens of countries, maybe a hundred, in which "liberty and justice for all" is practiced to an equal (or better) degree than the USA. Surely, they are all indivisible, and the faithful citizens of every country, with equal justification and evidence, believe they are under God.

So, what is it within the Pledge that sets America apart from the lesser and inferior Norways and Canadas? Or even Mexicos.

It is never necessary to indoctrinate people with the truth.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-23-2010 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:48 AM
 
3,562 posts, read 5,231,928 times
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The kids are being forced. In my area it is mandatory. Knowing darn well that since most kids are don't have a clue at the beginning they just do it because "teacher said". Get a little bit older and many are doing it so as not to attract attention to themselves.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:49 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,139,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
What is it exactly that you were opposing? Do you not believe in liberty and justice, or were you angry that your nation wasn't upholding those principles? Because if it's the latter, I would think it more appropriate to say the words, while helping your nation recommit to them.

This kind of rhetoric is pointless.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:50 AM
 
5,747 posts, read 12,060,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
Read my post above. In the context of a public school classroom, complete with peer pressure, etc., it is coercive.
Have you spent much time in a classroom? Beyond elementary school, the kids who say the Pledge are the ones ostracized. Rebellion is cool.
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