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Any person that is in a country from birth and never experienced any time/experience/knowledge of another country will believe whatever he/she is told to be the only truth within their own country of birth.
Take Iraq and Afganistan. They teach the children the Koran and it's teachings that Infidels are wrong in all respects.
These children are trained/indoctrinated...call it what you will in a particular philosophy of Religon. There are presently two different factions fighting each other on which is the correct one.
Not to be getting into a Religious thread here but we use "In God WE Trust" along with our Politics.
This site and several others (you can find them too) defines brainwashing as 1: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.
I don't see reciting the pledge as brainwashing since children 8 years of age really haven't formed political or religious beliefs, and the pledge does not force political or religious beliefs. As a previous poster said, I was thinking about the Moon Pie in my...lunch box. I doubt that children are rendered corporal punishment, if they don't recite the pledge. I do believe that home environmental factors affect whether a child wants to recite the pledge or not. Usually, the parents who defy things like the pledge are guilty of indoctrination of their beliefs to their children, but profess to believe the child should make decisions on their own.
I agree with the poster who said the military doesn't care about you, but I don't believe that makes the pledge of allegiance a travesty
What is important, I believe is that we have the freedom to choose whether to recite or not recite. What do elementary students think about this?
brain·wash·ing n.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
So today I was in a conversation with my girlfriend about when we were in school we would say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning from 6 years old to 18.
I remembered that we wouldnt question saying the pledge nor would it feel any different than the normal routine of eating breakfast or taking a shower. It was just so repetitious!
And after talking about it, looking back from my viewpoint now as an older and a little wiser adult, see that what we were doing all those years from childhood to young adults really looked like we were being BRAINWASHED. And I say that from the idea that if we were to look at say Russia, or Iran, or Cuba doing this we would certainly say something like, "Wow, they really brainwash them early on to devote themselves to their cause."
Then I got to thinking further that as the free society that we are do we really need to do this? I mean I love my country, and Im pretty sure that so far id rather be here than in the Congo, or South America. Shouldnt we teach our children and people to love their country and pledge allegiance to it by their on free will instead of telling them and forcing them to do so?!?!
I dont know if im right about this, but looking back at it all I just get this creepy feeling about it.
So here is the debate, albeit not necessarily a great one: Should we be forcing school children to say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning or let them make up their own minds?
I completely agree with you, instead of brainwashing which this is, teach the children facts in school and inspire them to think for themselves. In my experience you can have conversations with kids as young as 6-7 where they express their own views on things. If you know how to talk to them.
I do think it's interesting that in the western world, I know of few other countries with this practice, and I know of few other countries where you'll see such a large portion of the population claim to live in the "greatest country in the world", often times without ever experiencing another one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian
What is it exactly that you were opposing? Do you not believe in liberty and justice, or were you angry that your nation wasn't upholding those principles? Because if it's the latter, I would think it more appropriate to say the words, while helping your nation recommit to them.
I think the opposition is simply the fact that it has to be said, whether it's actually mandatory or just encouraged it shapes a way of thought and it limits thinking for oneself.
The pledge of allegiance is the same thing. It doesn't inspire own thought and by the time they reach an age where most people would think it natural to discuss it, their "own" thoughts have already been shaped.
From an outsiders viewpoint it's also interesting to experience this allegiance to your "country", personally I feel lucky that I was born in Norway and not some less developed country, but I don't feel any strong allegiance in every day life. If I thought the Norwegian government started acting in a way that wasn't beneficiary for the greater good of the world (yes, world, not country), I'd be the first one to try and change it, as I have in the past.
I completely agree with you, instead of brainwashing which this is, teach the children facts in school and inspire them to think for themselves. In my experience you can have conversations with kids as young as 6-7 where they express their own views on things. If you know how to talk to them.
I do think it's interesting that in the western world, I know of few other countries with this practice, and I know of few other countries where you'll see such a large portion of the population claim to live in the "greatest country in the world", often times without ever experiencing another one.
From an outsiders viewpoint it's also interesting to experience this allegiance to your "country", personally I feel lucky that I was born in Norway and not some less developed country, but I don't feel any strong allegiance in every day life. If I thought the Norwegian government started acting in a way that wasn't beneficiary for the greater good of the world (yes, world, not country), I'd be the first one to try and change it, as I have in the past.
I always felt that reciting the Pledge was incumbent n me as part of my role in pretending that America was a good country worthy of respect and characterized by seeking to do what is right. How often it is the case that acting as if something were true ends up helping in bringing it about.
I am reminded of Chief Justice John Roberts' succinct observation regarding racial preferences. Paraphrased: "The best way to make people equal is to treat them as if they were equal." (I would go Roberts one further, and argue that it is the ONLY way.)
In the same sense, the only way to visualize liberty and justice for all is to say, aloud and in pulbic, the words which represent our nation's pledge to make these things a reality for all people.
There is a lot to be said for expressing idealistic thoughts in public, as long as those thoughts are expressed sincerely and with a thoughtful understanding of what they mean. That such sincerity and understanding are lacking among some young people is not the fault of the Pledge, but of the educators who are either too timid or ignorant to make its meaning clear to their students.
"Liberty and justice for all" is an idealistic and noble thought. Its nobility stems from the fact that it contains within it the freedom of those who would demur from its sentiments to refrain from reciting the words, without fear of harrassment or retribution. To my mind, unless that is true, the Pledge has no meaning at all.
When I see that there is liberty and justice for all, I will acknowledge it willfully, without coercion or duress. And I absolutely refuse to be forced to acknowledge your God.
Aside from that content flaw, saying the Pledge of Allegiance is very closely allied to singing "Happy Birthday". It is a meaningless form of pageantry, which is socially obligatory when everyone else does it.
In school, I refused. Each morning, one student was chosen at random to come up front and lead the rest of the class in the Pledge of Allegiance. I refused, and my teachers all respected that, and I was never compelled, nor made to feel uncomfortable for refusing to do so. It was partly, I suppose, a feature of my Autism, although that condition was not recognized at the time, because most of the time I could fade socialization. But I drew the line at standing in front of the class and parroting words under duress which were not my own, but as though they were. When everyone sings Happy Birthday, I just move my mouth. I can't recall ever thinking that the American people were in any way superior to people who did not live in America, and it seemed revolting to put my hand on my heart and pretend that we were. In those days, America was not yet "under God", and most blacks had neither liberty nor justice. I wondered, as I stood there, if somewhere in America, black children were being coerced to mindlessly repeat the same lie.
Autistics have a strong resistance to herd mentality. Most of you are not autistic, and can't relate very well to what I've just explained. But it's my response to the OP. Don't invite me to a lynch mob, either.
And I would like to know how many kids could tell you, in an articulate manner, exactly what they are reciting. When I was in elementary school I had no idea what some of the words meant, much less the context in which they were used.
In the same sense, the only way to visualize liberty and justice for all is to say, aloud and in pulbic, the words which represent our nation's pledge to make these things a reality for all people.
l.
That can work both ways. If we are convinced that what we have is liberty and justice, what incentive is there to strive for factual liberty and justice? It's NewSpeak. If War is called Peace, what is the incentive to seek a Peace that you already think you have?
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