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But the point is that I believe the islands have a capability to return to a self-sufficient state, where people grow their own food (the great wealth of perennial vegetables and fruiting trees which can grow here is immense) and live harmoniously with nature.
They probably could, I have read population estimates anywhere from 200,000 to 1,000,000 before the arrival of europeans in the islands. Not sure people would want to give up all their stuff though, I saw plenty of Hawaiians with big trucks, flat screen tv's, epoxy surfboards, etc... just like everyone else.
The whole thread about military occupation is fascinating. It's true that Hawaii has a huge military infrastructure. I believe the Pacific Command is located in Honolulu, essentially controlling the US military across 1/3 of the globe.
nullgeo wrote: "And if America hadn't annexed Hawai'i, some other nation (esp. Japan) would have." But there are several sovereign nations that have HUGE military bases (Okinawa, Guantanamo), why couldn't Hawaii be independant again with US military bases? I don't think the bases will go away overnight, but that doesn't mean we have to be locked into any thinking about the rest of the islands.
I like Vaedrem's thinking about how oil and processed food won't always be flowing from outside. If nothing else, it should be more sustainable to provide energy and food renewably in Hawai'i for Hawai'i.
timbo says: "wont happen in ours or our great great grandkids lives." Is that an educated guess or a wish?
whtvpr says: "Hawaii voted 17 to 1 in 1959 to become a state." Yeah, but the sovereign government of Hawaii didn't vote to get overthrown by US Marines. After that, Hawaiians were marginalized and transplants were mostly in charge. And I do believe the Ni'ihau precinct voted against statehood, if you're interested in the "Hawaiian" opinion.
whtvpr also says: "Lastly, there simply isn't enough land in Hawaii to sustain itself." This is certainly true on Oahu, but each of the other islands, with some renewable energy investments, could probably be self-sustaining. Sugar cane would probably cover every sqft of non-food producing land to produce ethanol.
I was born and raised on Kauai, and left the islands to spend 21 years in the US Army. I came back and spent the last tour at Schofield Barracks HI. After getting out, and receiving a retirement income, I worked for a time in Waikiki as a Security Supervisor for a top hotel. My wife also worked as a federal worker. All our money still could not meet the lifestyle that we had become accustomed to ( which was not extravagant). We left the islands after both my boys were out of the house and now work as overseas contractors. We are again nearing retirement and are looking to move to Arizona, Nevada or Washington(where our boys are and family are located). My story is not unique. I know so many who are like me, and want to stay in Hawaii, but can't simply because we can't afford it. So you folks planning on moving to Hawaii, pay much attention to this blog. Everyone's contribution has been good points to heed...very carefully. Mahalo.
That may be true in most states, but it is NOT true in Hawaii. In most states, a military person can continue to register his/her car in his home state, but Hawaii only allows military to keep their current registration til it expires, and then requires registration in Hawaii.
The gasoline sold on the bases includes Hawaii state tax.
Military does have to pay registration, but it's $25 per vehicle.
For example. My civic was 230, truck was 650, and motorcycle 140. When I got married, I put my husband's name on all my vehicles. my fees went from 1k to $75. when i told me co-workers, they were floored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UHgrad
- BAH (basic housing allowance) can set the rent prices in the areas around the base. This has been especially bad since the housing bubble because BAH went up as housing went up, now that housing is trying to go down BAH is not dropping so rents are staying high. Look at the Hampton Roads VA forums if you don't believe me. A 1br apartment in a nice part of Virginia Beach or Norfolk cost around $600 a month in 2000, the same apartment costs around $1100 in 2011. Amazingly, the 2011 BAH for a single E1 without dependents is $1100 for that area. In Honolulu right now, the lowest rate (E1 - E4) without dependents is $1512 a month for housing. No kids, living by themselves, $1500+ a month TAX FREE to pay rent... This can distort the balance of wages/cost of living in an area tremendously.
i agree with alot of what UHgrad is saying. it wasn't until i was married that i realized how much my husband was making a month. couple that with the amazing ways to save money, and everything is very distorted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaedrem
It would be very sustainable to eliminate an employer that imports it's own workers to the islands, contributing to crowding and diminishing land available for local agriculture. Removing that amount of people and polluting infrastructure would be a great thing, and not all "jobs" are equal or irreplaceable. I think that is what the islands should be focused upon, becoming independent again, growing our own organic food, producing our own energy, not using the islands precious resources to buttress the US empire, or it's military, which is the #1 contributor to the greenhouses gasses causing global warming.
When i was in high school, i had already come to the realization that with out the military Hawaii would be majorly screwed. I gave a speech about this, standing in front Bumpy Kanahele. He was one of the major Hawaiian sovereignty activist at the time, a hugely intimidating man. But it was what i believed and still believe.
Personally (and somewhat idealistically in our present system), I'd like to see less segregation amongst humankind on every front.
My every dream, hope, and prayer is to see the abolishment of all borders, boundaries, and armies, and hunger, sickness, and death, and have humankind live as one united family, without losing our diverse and fascinating cultures.
In my belief system the above will come to fruition, but the only Person qualified to rule such a system (well, a Kingdom) is God.
'To make of the Earth, a Heaven.'
Each of us can choose to put many elements of what most would call 'Utopia' into effect now simply by exercising love of neighbor and taking care of the Earth and each other. Let's not build any more walls when we so desperately need bridges....
I am a great believer in the family of man and the intrinsic worth of every human being.
- BAH (basic housing allowance) can set the rent prices in the areas around the base. This has been especially bad since the housing bubble because BAH went up as housing went up, now that housing is trying to go down BAH is not dropping so rents are staying high. Look at the Hampton Roads VA forums if you don't believe me. A 1br apartment in a nice part of Virginia Beach or Norfolk cost around $600 a month in 2000, the same apartment costs around $1100 in 2011. Amazingly, the 2011 BAH for a single E1 without dependents is $1100 for that area. In Honolulu right now, the lowest rate (E1 - E4) without dependents is $1512 a month for housing. No kids, living by themselves, $1500+ a month TAX FREE to pay rent... This can distort the balance of wages/cost of living in an area tremendously.
I've noticed most military and post-military are the strongest against excessive gov't spending.
Since I've been living in Japan and Korea for years....so I regularly come into contact with quite a few military personnel. (To anyone who doesn't know, we have many many U.S. military bases all over Japan and Korea, and have for many many years now). Anyways, I'm regularly just amazed at the excessive amounts of money they get and the large sizes of their apartments particularly in comparison to what Koreans and Japanese and foreign ESL foreign teachers live in.
It also hasn't gone by unnoticed that a lot of the younger GI's will marry almost any girl that comes along and quickly start popping out kids - significantly more money given to housing per kid, etc.
I also don't get how anyone after the military could ever go back to living without all those massive amenities.
I've been in Asia off and on since 1996, and have a family here in Japan - and by esl teacher standards and Japanese standards, I'm living in bigger place than what is typical. Yet, I've never once seen any housing anywhere in Japan or Korea that was rented by military that was anywhere near as 'small' as mine.
Tying this back into Japan. Yeah, I can see how sizeable portions of the real estate in Oahu could certainly be effected by that.
I've noticed most military and post-military are the strongest against excessive gov't spending.
Since I've been living in Japan and Korea for years....so I regularly come into contact with quite a few military personnel. (To anyone who doesn't know, we have many many U.S. military bases all over Japan and Korea, and have for many many years now). Anyways, I'm regularly just amazed at the excessive amounts of money they get and the large sizes of their apartments particularly in comparison to what Koreans and Japanese and foreign ESL foreign teachers live in.
It also hasn't gone by unnoticed that a lot of the younger GI's will marry almost any girl that comes along and quickly start popping out kids - significantly more money given to housing per kid, etc.
I also don't get how anyone after the military could ever go back to living without all those massive amenities.
I've been in Asia off and on since 1996, and have a family here in Japan - and by esl teacher standards and Japanese standards, I'm living in bigger place than what is typical. Yet, I've never once seen any housing anywhere in Japan or Korea that was rented by military that was anywhere near as 'small' as mine.
Tying this back into Japan. Yeah, I can see how sizeable portions of the real estate in Oahu could certainly be effected by that.
There is a reason for the extra pay to our military.
I served in the Navy for 31 years. When I started, it was during the Korean War, and most military were from the Draft. Pay was quite low. I was a Yale University graduate, an officer being paid $400/mo plus a housing allowance of about $120, had I been married. Enlisted pay was lots less.
After the Vietnam War, the country decided to go to an all-volunteer force.
You have to pay lots more to recruit quality people who's daily job it is to be shot at, and die, if necessary.
I served in a Navy combat air rescue squadron (Vietnam) ... one of my sons has just taken his discharge from the Army Airborne rather than stay in ... (both of us were enlisted) ... the pay and allowances weren't much when I was in ... when I did the calculations with my son, I said it wasn't going to work out as well as he thought it would for him, his wife and baby. It didn't. He had wanted a career. There are many hidden costs to military life (uniforms, critical equipment, and more). For a time, I earned base pay, combat pay, hazardous duty pay (on top of combat pay) and flight pay. It added up, sure. But you can't maintain that level of risk or assignment -- away from family -- consistently over the years ... nor would you want to. Military are NOT living high on the hog.
That said, the Japanese and Chinese in their cities have acculturated themselves for many generations to living in much greater densities. It is not a reality I could adapt to ... nor do I expect others, not acculturated, to simply accept. I live in extremely small spaces in great simplicity, but do so without other people nearby in numbers. Those serving in the military have enough pressures without heaping additional strain of lifestyle change on them. If you haven't experienced military living, you'll just have to take the word of those of us who have. Not much fun in general.
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