Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yeah, he may be a cook and yeah he may be an idiot for carrying on (this does tend to happen at Military Balls) but you are just as guilty for acting stupid by judging him based upon what he does for the military. Now who is being elitist and whiny?
elitist and whiny? don't get me wrong, i have friends that have have been been to iraq and afgan. they sure don't act like this sailor. a former room mate, who i greatly respect, doesn't act like that. one of my best friend's vehicle got hit w/ an IED. i respect them and i know they do their job because they love their country... and they don't whine about it like this guy. yes their miss their families, but they understand that it's part of the job. these guys fit in perfectly with the locals.
like i said, you don't have to agree w/ me. it's my opinion. but my point was, that if this guy didn't like his job that much he could surely find a job as a cook outside the navy.
This military tangent started as being pretty relevant to the thread, as the military represent, both active duty and retired, one of the special angles I mentioned earlier ... but this is now beginning to take on a separate identity I would comment, however, before bring it back around, that I can agree at some level with both mokeanne and Jackrabbit808 -- without trying to be a peacemaker particularly.
The military IS a choice. Furthermore, as anyone who looks can see -- and especially those of us who have looked from the inside -- the military is a cross-section of humanity, like anything else. Quite frankly it includes the worst of humanity as well as some of the best -- and everything in between. The difference lies in the specific contract "to serve". Those who join the service do so with an express commitment to literally give their lives, if called upon to do so ... not just 'risk' their lives, but literally accept death on behalf of the nation's benefit. What's key here is that this contract is entered into under conditions of pretty modest reward ... service members do get some nice benefits ... their base pay, however, is pretty nominal ... the benefits, which barely make up for low pay, are a more cost-effective way for the taxpayers to share the gratitude for the seriousness of the contract than, say, the high salaries of civilians sent to risk zones. (Why were Haliburton truck drivers earning $100,000 a year in Iraq?)
You know, individuals can take other risk jobs, such as firefighting and police work -- even others such as public utility linemen, and more qualify for the classification -- and receive much better pay and great benefits and retirement packages ... and these other professions can be walked away from at any time, freely. The armed forces are a voluntary choice. But there is a level of service that is unique, and sacrificially so (consider the living conditions compared to living freely in a home community). Finally, I would also add that, while there are probably at least 10 'support' personnel to every one of us who serve(d) in actual combat, the contract is for all ... personnel go where they are assigned and do what they are given to do ... anyone can end up anywhere under any conditions. I am combat disabled. I would be dead (literally) if it weren't for many in support. It is not a contract to be taken lightly, at any level.
Now then, in the case of Hawaii, the few benefits that provide an angle for active or retired military barely make it possible to be in 'paradise' for a while or in retirement. I suggest that we accept this community for having earned its good fortune in this respect.
The AVF (all volunteer forces) do a superlative job. I remember the "draft" days, pre January 1973, when it ended. But many forget that the USAF, Navy, Marines never drafted anyone then, it was then all volunteer ! The 35 years before 1973 were draft years. I never met any person drafted by the USAF after 1947, when it became a separate branch from the Army . Marines or Navy either. The AVF is essentially Army affected. Great thing, but it saved money versus "drafting" and having to train new people constantly to replace those that got out after a 2 year draft stint. Now, our guys just get resent BACK to multiple tours in any area needed. The "benefits" are in need of great improvement, especially salaries. Paying civilian contractors in areas many times more annual salaries than military, pisses me off. The best to all service members active and retired, bless you.
The AVF (all volunteer forces) do a superlative job. I remember the "draft" days, pre January 1973, when it ended. But many forget that the USAF, Navy, Marines never drafted anyone then, it was then all volunteer ! The 35 years before 1973 were draft years. I never met any person drafted by the USAF after 1947, when it became a separate branch from the Army . Marines or Navy either. The AVF is essentially Army affected. Great thing, but it saved money versus "drafting" and having to train new people constantly to replace those that got out after a 2 year draft stint. Now, our guys just get resent BACK to multiple tours in any area needed. The "benefits" are in need of great improvement, especially salaries. Paying civilian contractors in areas many times more annual salaries than military, pisses me off. The best to all service members active and retired, bless you.
There were draftees into both Marines and Navy during Vietnam ... there is even a City Data thread on the subject: What Months Were Guys Drafted Into The Marines or Into the Navy During The Vietnam War?
There were not many ... I have read as few as 1,000 into the Marines after 1966 ... but I can't confirm ... there were also some who went to the Navy ... I don't believe the Air Force has ever run short on its enlistment quotas.
I see a lot more homeless in San Francisco, Chicago, NYC, or just about any large US city compared to when I walk around Honolulu.
Unemployment is low by mainland standards -and there are plenty of rentals to be found under $2,000/month - you may not live the comporable standards of the mainland but if you are educated and driven, you need not be homeless in Honolulu. There are many homeless in Hawaii that have made that choice - or drug use have made that a choice for them.
It isn't all doom and gloom in HNL.
First, unemplyment is low, this is true. But the majority of jobs pay way to little for someone to make a living on. You might get a job, but if that job only pays 1000 bux a month how are you gonna survive?
Second, you are right, there are a lot of rentals for under 2000 dollars a month, but again if you are only making 1000 bux a month you options are EXTREMELY limited. A 1300 dollar apartment may as well be 1 5000 dollar apartment.
Finally, it doesnt really matter how educated or driven you are, if you don't have an address or phone number, a place to take a shower and put on clean clothes and shave, who is going to hire you?
It isn't impossible but it is damned hard. I was homeless for about 6 months due to losing my job and not being able to find one before my savings dried up. I was living on a beach out of the back of my car. During this time I had no cell phone and no mailing address. I couldn't find a job for the life of me! No one would even accept my application since I couldn't fill in the address part. Then once I had a job, it only paid 6.25 an hour. so after taxes I only brought home about 900 a month. So even the cheapest apartments were out of my price range. Most places won't rent to youunless you make at least double the rent a month, so a 600 dollar studio required me to make 12 a month. Finally I met a woman who let me rent an unused room out of the back of her house for 500 a month.
There were draftees into both Marines and Navy during Vietnam ... there is even a City Data thread on the subject: What Months Were Guys Drafted Into The Marines or Into the Navy During The Vietnam War?
There were not many ... I have read as few as 1,000 into the Marines after 1966 ... but I can't confirm ... there were also some who went to the Navy ... I don't believe the Air Force has ever run short on its enlistment quotas.
Does anyone have an actual "selective service draft notice" that states explicitly, during the Vietnam era, they were" drafted into the Marines or Navy? With tons of respect, I think "perceptions" may be an issue here on being in such a category. Take a look at this below:
Conscription in the United States
Only 25% of those who actually served on the ground in Vietnam were drafted. The remaining 75% "volunteered" for the Army, Marines, Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard. Less than 38% of those killed in action were draftees. So contrary to the myth popular at the time, being drafted during the Vietnam War Era was not a "death sentence".
According to the Veteran's Administration, 9.2 million men served in the military between 1964 and 1975. Nearly 3.5 million men served in the Vietnam theater of operations. From a pool of approximately 27 million, the draft raised 2,215,000 men for military service during the Vietnam era. It has also been credited with "encouraging" many of the 8.7 million "volunteers" to join rather than risk being drafted.
Government leaders felt the potential for a draft was a critical element in maintaining a constant flow of volunteers. On numerous occasions Gen. Hershey told Congress for every man drafted, three or four more were scared into volunteering. Assuming his assessment was accurate, this would mean "over 11 million men volunteered for service because of the draft" between January 1954 and April 1975.
The policy of using the draft as a club to force "voluntary" enlistment was unique in U.S. history. Previous drafts had not aimed at encouraging individuals to sign up in order to gain preferential placement or less dangerous postings. However, the incremental buildup of Vietnam without a clear threat to the country bolstered this. Some estimates suggest conscription encompassed almost one-third of all eligible men during the period of 1965-69. This group represented those without exemption or resources to avoid military service. During the active combat phase, the possibility of avoiding combat by selecting their service and military specialty led as many as four out of 11 million eligible men to enlist. The military relied upon this draft-induced volunteerism to make its quotas, especially the Army, which accounted for nearly 95 percent of all inductees during Vietnam. For example, defense recruiting reports show 34% of the recruits in 1964 up to 50% in 1970 indicated they joined to avoid adverse placement via the draft. These rates dwindled to 24% in 1972 and 15% in 1973 after the change to a lottery system. Accounting for other factors, it can be argued up to 60 percent of those who served throughout the Vietnam War did so directly or indirectly because of the draft.
You have to understand what a draft is first.
A draft only conscripts enough men, to meet the current manning goals of the services.
And then, only after the volunteers.
2. It is technically possible, for a draftee to "end up in any service" (NOTE THIS!!), as long as those services do not have enough volunteers.
3. But in Vietnam, the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps, all had enough "volunteers" to meet their manning goals, so they never had to "draft", technically, via "selective service" procedure.
The Army was the only service that did not have enough volunteers, so had to use draftees to meet their manning goals. You are standing in the "draft" line. A Marine comes and tells you to come with him. The guy
GOES but is NOT "drafted" into the Marines!! He WAS already "drafted" into the ARMY, and now is "voluntering" by subtle force to join the Marines by preference default, since at that moment they needed you !!
So approx 30% of the Army during Vietnam, were "draftees", the other 70% were "volunteers".
4. So during Vietnam, a "draftee", did not get a chance to choose their service, since the AF, Navy and Marines, almost always did not need any more recruits.
I do think I would rather be Homeless In Hawaii than to be Sleepless In Seattle!
And there, in a nutshell, is the problem. A romanticized idea of what it's like to live on an island...
It's not just the cost of living or the recent recession that made homelessness worse. There are many factors that contributed... some are political, some not. None can be directed at any one party.
40% of the homeless are Vets. Many are challenged with mental health issues due to not being treated after the war. Some homeless are chronic. You help them, create shelters, and they can't live in the shelters so they take off with their shopping carts and build a home somewhere on a beach or under a freeway. (http://www.kitv.com/news/28946393/detail.html - broken link)
We did have a problem about 20 years ago where a lot of people were being cleaned up and shipped to Hawaii on a one-way ticket. It was discovered that some churches and shelters felt the homeless would be better off "on the beach." When the city found out about it, there was quite an uproar. Interestingly, some Hawaii politicians have now considered doing the same thing -- sending them back home.
The one stark reminder we have living on an island is that resources and land are finite. Hawaii is a microcosm of the world at large. Overcrowding is a huge problem. Fortunately, this month's unemployment statistics show some hope. My heart goes out to the families who are working and are trying to get it together. It's just a sad situation.
Rest assured, this is NOT a problem anyone is sweeping under the rug. There are many discussions on many levels about how to handle it and help the homeless find a home.
Does anyone have an actual "selective service draft notice" that states explicitly, during the Vietnam era, they were" drafted into the Marines or Navy? With tons of respect, I think "perceptions" may be an issue here on being in such a category. Take a look at this below:
...
You have to understand what a draft is first.
...
They all went into the Army.
Uh yeah ... I was there. So I do know all about the things you cite. I enlisted at 17 and volunteered specifically for duty that was of a volunteer only nature ... no draftees -- or enlistees -- were assigned to my specialization. I served in close air support squadrons, both fixed wing and helicopter missions in SAR / RESCAP work pulling out downed airmen ... we also flew close air troop cover daily. I worked with Navy and Marine missions almost entirely and came home from my first tour before my 19th birthday. I cannot provide verifiable documentation, but I knew one brown water sailor who served as a Gunner's Mate on PBR's who said he was drafted and assigned -- though he may well have been one of those you cite who opted during the process to go Navy. That said, I also knew and still know Marines who claim there were a few Marine draftees. I provided the link previously to a C D thread in which both Navy and Marines are represented as having been drafted into those services What Months Were Guys Drafted Into The Marines or Into the Navy During The Vietnam War? ... I'll add the link below to VVNW (Veteran's of the Vietnam War, Inc.) which website also claims there were a small number of Marines drafted into that service -- go to question number 23:
Education (http://www.vvnw.org/educational_material/educational.htm - broken link)
I have also sent out an inquiry to two war veteran friends involved in education and counseling of Vietnam veterans-- one of whom had a career path as an officer in the Marines including two tours. I will report later.
For now I would say that, while this is all very tangential to the thread subject, this is a question that has had curiosity value to a number of folks in the past. Also would mention that, regardless of having been conscripted, and regardless of whether they served in Vietnam, those drafted into service stepped up when called and are due their respect for that. Lastly, I offer my respects to those who conscientiously opposed the war, as their conviction often involved courage as well.
To Jeepers Paradise: No rudeness intended, but you are incorrect. I graduated from Paris Island on 01/11/69 and watched the first bus load(s) of official draftees arrive on PI on that day. It was a hot topic within the Corps on the island. The DIs (drill instructors) made many comments about the sad turn of events. New recruits are regularly characterized as being as low as "whale sh**", my DI said they have to come up with a new label for draftee recruits.
Just FYI, later in Viet Nam, I didn't notice any difference in the color of blood spilled between draftees and us volunteer enlisted types. There was an informal stigma of being drafted into the Corps as opposed to enlisting but it didn't make any difference in combat.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I would comment, however, before bring it back around, that I can agree at some level with both mokeanne and Jackrabbit808 -- without trying to be a peacemaker particularly. 
