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I think that half of Hawaii's economic problem now, is that Hawaii's economy is based on tourism.
well, the economy being so bad, many people on the mainland don't the the funds no more to go on vacation, especially to Hawaii!
Which is sad, for sure, but you are so so right about so many Mainlanders NOT being minimalist Mahrie!
Yeah, they want EVERYTHING, and to a high degree. The best CARS, the best CLOTHES, the best SHOES, the best looking lawns.. I find it ridiculous, not that I consider myself a "minimalist" but I can get by too, on less, as long as I'm eating and i'm happy.
I remember well, when I lived in Hawaii there was never much food in the refrigerator, But that was okay, cuz i used to eat a lot of fresh food, fresh fish, one of my best friends was a fisherman, another good friend was a farmer who grew vegatables & avos on his land...
we definitely got by on less, and I cannot say our houses were very "elaborate" or fancy. Well, I think the nicest house I ever lived in was in upcountry Maui, and that was only $450 a month, and it had a piano in it.. one of the reasons I rented the house. I think the owner was going to try to sell it, for only $150,000 and it had a 1/2 acres of land on it too. That was several years ago now..but when I first came to the islands, we lived in really tiny apartments, but we always had jobs to go to..
Now, to be honest, the job wages are LOWER in many spots in the mainland, than they were in Hawaii years ago! So, the mainland is not doing so good either.
The cost of living is high in Hawaii cuz everything has to be imported! That's a no-brainer! If they could steer away from having Hawaii's income be based on Tourism and something else.. like the Movie Industry or growing Mac Nuts & avocados.. which are some of the best in the world, maybe the economy would get better.
Too bad they couldn't have a famous Japanese firm come to Hawaii and bring really good jobs there!
I don't think there's anything wrong with Hawaii, it's got to be the greenest state in the nation! It's just that it's so far away from anything, it makes it expensive to get stuff delivered there.
If they produced more stuff out there, instead of importing so many things, the economy could get better. But you are right, you do not have to spend thousands of dollars on heating bills, or air conditioning bills even, as the climate is a lot milder in the summer than it is in many states on the mainland!
We live in a very small 1 bedroom house. When we watch the show House Hunters on HGTV we crack up laughing listening to people say that a livingroom, that is bigger than our whole house, is too small. Seeing a couple buy a 3000 square foot house seems silly to me! Not saying they can't, because it is their money and they can spend it how ever they wish to. Does seem like there is a lot of waste going on though.
I served in a Navy combat air rescue squadron (Vietnam) ... one of my sons has just taken his discharge from the Army Airborne rather than stay in ... (both of us were enlisted) ... the pay and allowances weren't much when I was in ... when I did the calculations with my son, I said it wasn't going to work out as well as he thought it would for him, his wife and baby. It didn't. He had wanted a career. There are many hidden costs to military life (uniforms, critical equipment, and more). For a time, I earned base pay, combat pay, hazardous duty pay (on top of combat pay) and flight pay. It added up, sure. But you can't maintain that level of risk or assignment -- away from family -- consistently over the years ... nor would you want to. Military are NOT living high on the hog.
That said, the Japanese and Chinese in their cities have acculturated themselves for many generations to living in much greater densities. It is not a reality I could adapt to ... nor do I expect others, not acculturated, to simply accept. I live in extremely small spaces in great simplicity, but do so without other people nearby in numbers. Those serving in the military have enough pressures without heaping additional strain of lifestyle change on them. If you haven't experienced military living, you'll just have to take the word of those of us who have. Not much fun in general.
Agreed, let me be clear... I don't think that the military enlisted folks are underpaid or living the easy life. My points were about the effects a base has on the local economy, and most importantly the effect that BAH has on rental prices in a time when house prices are declining. Given the civilian wages in most base towns I have lived in, there is no other reason why the rental prices should be as high as they are. I wish they would pay the military better and reduce the BAH personally. I think we would all be better off that way.
Agreed, let me be clear... I don't think that the military enlisted folks are underpaid or living the easy life. My points were about the effects a base has on the local economy, and most importantly the effect that BAH has on rental prices in a time when house prices are declining. Given the civilian wages in most base towns I have lived in, there is no other reason why the rental prices should be as high as they are. I wish they would pay the military better and reduce the BAH personally. I think we would all be better off that way.
Yeah, I got that ... I agree with your comments pretty much across the board ... I felt that Tiger Beer's observations deserved some counterpoint ... speaking of which, I neglected to add that the allowances for each additional kid don't cover the costs of having and raising a child ... military personnel are not having kids to up their allowance. Even if the cost and allowances were in line on a budget analysis -- whoo boy! one parent raising a multiple-child family while the other is overseas on tour?! Oh man, is thatnot worth a simple, paltry allowance!
There is a reason for the extra pay to our military.
I served in the Navy for 31 years. When I started, it was during the Korean War, and most military were from the Draft. Pay was quite low. I was a Yale University graduate, an officer being paid $400/mo plus a housing allowance of about $120, had I been married. Enlisted pay was lots less.
After the Vietnam War, the country decided to go to an all-volunteer force.
You have to pay lots more to recruit quality people who's daily job it is to be shot at, and die, if necessary.
how interesting, i never knew or even thought of that. my husband was a career counselor for a while. it's pretty interesting to hear what's going on lately. with the economy the way it is, things seem backwards now. i know for sure there are a couple ppl under my husband that he would like to get rid of.
but this brings me to my next point. i know what i am about to say will undoubtedly upset ppl, but i am allowed an opinion. this is just the way that i see things in my screwed up head... but i know other ppl that have the same opinions, mostly because of negative interactions w/ military ppl.
being in the military is a job. you get paid, just like any other civilian gets paid. yes you put your life on the line and miss your family, but this is the profession that you choose. it's not a life for everyone, that's why not everyone is doing it. there are a lot of guys out there that expect you to respect them simply because they are in the military. they whine about how bad they have it, but IMHO... it's the life you chose, at least for the guys that are in now. you get the benefits as well as the problems that come w/ the job.
we went to the khaki ball last weekend, there was a guy on our table yapping it up and acting stupid. he goes on to complain about missing his son's birthdays for years. he's been on a boat for 4-5 years. come to find out this guy is a cook.
granted, i don't feel this way about all military members. it's just that i've met so many that have chip on their shoulder.
The whole thread about military occupation is fascinating. It's true that Hawaii has a huge military infrastructure. I believe the Pacific Command is located in Honolulu, essentially controlling the US military across 1/3 of the globe.
nullgeo wrote: "And if America hadn't annexed Hawai'i, some other nation (esp. Japan) would have." But there are several sovereign nations that have HUGE military bases (Okinawa, Guantanamo), why couldn't Hawaii be independant again with US military bases? I don't think the bases will go away overnight, but that doesn't mean we have to be locked into any thinking about the rest of the islands.
I like Vaedrem's thinking about how oil and processed food won't always be flowing from outside. If nothing else, it should be more sustainable to provide energy and food renewably in Hawai'i for Hawai'i.
timbo says: "wont happen in ours or our great great grandkids lives." Is that an educated guess or a wish?
whtvpr says: "Hawaii voted 17 to 1 in 1959 to become a state." Yeah, but the sovereign government of Hawaii didn't vote to get overthrown by US Marines. After that, Hawaiians were marginalized and transplants were mostly in charge. And I do believe the Ni'ihau precinct voted against statehood, if you're interested in the "Hawaiian" opinion.
whtvpr also says: "Lastly, there simply isn't enough land in Hawaii to sustain itself." This is certainly true on Oahu, but each of the other islands, with some renewable energy investments, could probably be self-sustaining. Sugar cane would probably cover every sqft of non-food producing land to produce ethanol.
You make some good points.
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Ultimately, we do have enough land in Hawaii to grow all of our own food, and there are a whole lot of people on Molokai doing just that.
But local agriculture is discouraged and sabotaged by the import of low-quality, cheap mainland produce and by economic incentives given for people to use Hawaiian land to grow commodity crops like coffee and macadamia nuts meant for export. With a change of policies, with community gardens, with educating people on how to use the land they have to grow food instead of just ornamental landscaping, we could go back to the time when Hawaii fed and clothed itself. In traditional Polynesian culture, a breadfruit tree was planted for each child born, because that tree would grow up to produce an immense amount of food all throughout the year for the child to live off of. If you planted just breadfruit and avocados, with pipinella vines growing up them, you would have a lot of food right there.
Oahu has of course gone down an unsustainable path which would need to be changed drastically, probably resulting in some people who just want to live a mainland city lifestyle leaving to pursue that in a mainland city. And while there are organic farms on the islands producing foods like broccoli or peaches, some people would also have to change their consumer taste index to accommodate what can easily be grown here in high amounts.
Global warming and peak oil are real, and they are here today. Digging up such massive amounts of oil and coal from the ground and piling them up into the atmosphere has serious consequences, and is more than our volcanoes could ever accomplish. These consequences are coming faster than originally predicted. Our great grandchildren will come off of several generations of having to face a difficult survival on a planet not what it used to be. The status quo can not go on indefinitely, if we are going to talk about electricity, we need to begin with accepting the fact that we will have to use a lot less than we do now. And if we currently can't go on without massive supplies sent in from the mainland, then we need to change that, because that will not last forever.
Beyond Molokai, there are small Pacific island nations that have never been colonized and which are self-sufficient regarding their food supply. It's doable.
Ultimately, we do have enough land in Hawaii to grow all of our own food, and there are a whole lot of people on Molokai doing just that.
But local agriculture is discouraged and sabotaged by the import of low-quality, cheap mainland produce and by economic incentives given for people to use Hawaiian land to grow commodity crops like coffee and macadamia nuts meant for export. With a change of policies, with community gardens, with educating people on how to use the land they have to grow food instead of just ornamental landscaping, we could go back to the time when Hawaii fed and clothed itself. In traditional Polynesian culture, a breadfruit tree was planted for each child born, because that tree would grow up to produce an immense amount of food all throughout the year for the child to live off of. If you planted just breadfruit and avocados, with pipinella vines growing up them, you would have a lot of food right there.
Sounds like the Philippines. Most people have chickens and small gardens, and do some fishing...small huts almost anyone can quickly build, etc.
It seems as though Hawaii's quality of life-wages for regular residents' equilibrium is off.
As soon as uber-wealthy people have priced out police, teachers, firefighters, grocery workers, their own cooks, landscapers, etc. the blue water and palms appeal will wear off pretty quickly.
Hopefully this happens before Hawaii's state moniker becomes, "Paradise... with a s**t load of tents!" Or, "The islands with more desperate housewives than you can shake a di*k at!"
they whine about how bad they have it, but IMHO... it's the life you chose, at least for the guys that are in now. you get the benefits as well as the problems that come w/ the job.
we went to the khaki ball last weekend, there was a guy on our table yapping it up and acting stupid. he goes on to complain about missing his son's birthdays for years. he's been on a boat for 4-5 years. come to find out this guy is a cook.
Civilians expect military personnel to be okay with dying for their country. "It's the life you chose, blah blah blah." I hear it all the time so I just let the civilians rant about the cost of milk while I enjoy all the benefits that life in the military has offered me. My pension will allow me to cover the cost of the mortgage of a decent home with some change and I will retain health benefits for myself and my family. My wife will be able to keep 55% of my retirement pension as well should I pass on. You won't here me whining about being in the military. I love it. Have I been almost killed a few times and been to Iraq? Yep. But, you won't hear me ever tell my story to anybody who isn't affiliated with the military (veteran or retiree). When civilians ask, "Have you been deployed?" I just say, "Yep" (with a don't-ask-me-any-more-stupid-questions-tone) and leave it at that.
Yeah, he may be a cook and yeah he may be an idiot for carrying on (this does tend to happen at Military Balls) but you are just as guilty for acting stupid by judging him based upon what he does for the military. Now who is being elitist and whiny?
Beyond Molokai, there are small Pacific island nations that have never been colonized and which are self-sufficient regarding their food supply. It's doable.
Last I checked, Hawaii is not a small island nation - there simply isnt enough land to sustain itself for over 1,000,000 people in a modern society - and I suspect most of us aren't ready to wear loincloth, grass skirts, and coconuts over our breasts - while cultivating our vegetable garden. And if the idea is that most of the 1,000,000+ people go back to the mainland or elsewhere, that isn't much different than suggesting african-americans on the mainland head back to Africa - it isn't right nor is it an option.
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