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Old 11-14-2007, 10:44 AM
 
47 posts, read 238,458 times
Reputation: 24

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Since the advent of vaccines we've seen a decrease in the numbers of cases these vaccines are meant to protect against. True
Since the advent of vaccines we've seen a rise in auto-immune disorders and autism. Also true.
Some may look at it as trading one set of problems for another.
It should also be pointed out that along with the development of vaccines, medical progress has continued to develop leading to better treatment and outcome for those who do get the diseases. There's also improved sanitation and nutrition which support an individual's natural ability to fight off disease.
I do believe there is more to this issue than just who is perceived as being socially responsible or not. People who choose not to vaccinate are not doing so to put others at risk for disease any more than those who do choose to vaccinate are intentionally trying to harm their children with the risks involved in vaccinations.
It's a very complicated decision and there are no absolutes involved.
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Suffolk, LI
405 posts, read 1,637,487 times
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This is basic epidemiology. Your non-vaccinated kids will be OK as long as the scales are tipped toward vaccinated kids. As that begins to change, we're poised to see a resurgance of all kinds of things that we thought had been eradicated. Ever heard of herd immunity? It is my strong feeling that we can kiss this goodbye as we move into the future, and it ain't gonna be pretty.

And I know this is off-topic, but I am sick of people complaining that the flu shot gave them the flu. The flu shot only protects against ONE STRAIN of the flu virus--the one that epidemiologists predict will be the most common that year. There are zillions of other strains and viruses; the flu shot cannot protect you against all of those. Flu shot side effects CAN include some mild flu-like symptoms, but if your child got very sick a week after the vaccination, chances are that it was an entirely different bug. There is no magic bullet. I'd rather be protected against SOMETHING than nothing at all.
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:05 PM
 
3 posts, read 6,562 times
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yes! 1 in a zillion! I'll take those odds!

Make sure it has "trace" amounts of mercury, please! k thx. Of course, I am selfish.
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:59 PM
 
5,360 posts, read 11,520,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaof2 View Post
how can you say "I KNOW they work, this is an undeniable fact....." and then go on to say "As stated, no vaccine is 100% effective, but they can be very close, if a vaccine is 95% effective your non-vaccinated child potentially puts my child at risk for diseases that they should not have to worry about..."

either you trust that they will protect your child from getting the disease or virus, or you don't.

"As more folks choose not to "risk" the vaccine for their kids they are undeniably counting on the parents in the VAST majority that do vaccinate to keep their own children from harm....this is wrong...."

again, i am not counting on anyone to vaccinate their children. this is a choice that every parent has a right to. if you don't want your children to be around non-vaccinated children, don't send your's to school.
Fortunately the law and common sense is on my side as vaccinations are mandated for school age children....

The fact that anyone could deny the effectiveness of vaccines is truly astounding.....I guess its just coincidence then that smallpox and polio have been all but eradicated since the advent of vaccines, no correlation at all

Trust me, if you were alive 60-70 years ago, and someone offered you a chance to protect your children from the scourge of smallpox, polio or mumps, you would have jumped at the chance...

It is only through decades of people doing the "right" thing that parents today think they have the "right" to choose.....they don't see a perceived down side to refusing the vaccine. The scales may be tipped in the not so distant future when heretofore "controlled" diseases make a comeback as more uninformed folks choose not to vaccinate....those who haven't been vaccinated will bear the brunt of that decision
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:10 PM
 
3 posts, read 6,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Fortunately the law and common sense is on my side as vaccinations are mandated for school age children....

The fact that anyone could deny the effectiveness of vaccines is truly astounding.....I guess its just coincidence then that smallpox and polio have been all but eradicated since the advent of vaccines, no correlation at all

Trust me, if you were alive 60-70 years ago, and someone offered you a chance to protect your children from the scourge of smallpox, polio or mumps, you would have jumped at the chance...

It is only through decades of people doing the "right" thing that parents today think they have the "right" to choose.....they don't see a perceived down side to refusing the vaccine. The scales may be tipped in the not so distant future when heretofore "controlled" diseases make a comeback as more uninformed folks choose not to vaccinate....those who haven't been vaccinated will bear the brunt of that decision
60-70 years ago we used lead and arsenic-based pesticides on our food. what's your point?

Moderator cut: put down

edited: what part of "religious exemption" falls under mandated by law?

Last edited by Mattie Jo; 11-15-2007 at 04:17 AM.. Reason: put down
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:15 PM
 
5,360 posts, read 11,520,230 times
Reputation: 13194
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisleysea View Post
Since the advent of vaccines we've seen a decrease in the numbers of cases these vaccines are meant to protect against. True
Since the advent of vaccines we've seen a rise in auto-immune disorders and autism. Also true.
Some may look at it as trading one set of problems for another.
It should also be pointed out that along with the development of vaccines, medical progress has continued to develop leading to better treatment and outcome for those who do get the diseases. There's also improved sanitation and nutrition which support an individual's natural ability to fight off disease.
I do believe there is more to this issue than just who is perceived as being socially responsible or not. People who choose not to vaccinate are not doing so to put others at risk for disease any more than those who do choose to vaccinate are intentionally trying to harm their children with the risks involved in vaccinations.
It's a very complicated decision and there are no absolutes involved.

Sorry, have to disagree here as well. You present both sides as if there is only implied cause and effect of vaccines on disease prevention and equal reason to link the rise of autism with the rise of vaccines.

Linking the rise of autism and autoimmune diseases to vaccine programs is trendy but not supported.

There is no hard evidence that vaccines or thimerasol, the usual named culprit in vaccines, have any link to autism or other diseases.

There is overwhelming evidence to support that vaccines currently in use in the US DO work, its not an implied cause and effect, it is proven....

Also, while I can sympathize with some dissension over newer vaccines like varicella others like diptheria, tetanus, whooping cough (which is making a comeback surprise, surprise), measles, mumps, rubella, polio, Hep B, smallpox....

These are not diseases to be taken lightly....

We may not immunize for smallpox anymore, but its not like treatments have improved, ditto for many of the above like polio and hepatitis B....

HIB vaccine is making one of the most common causes of childhood ear infections and pneumonia disappear, as antibiotic resistance grows, this is not a small victory....

There is a lot of misinformation circulating out there and the bottom line is even if people who choose not to vaccinate their kids think they are not putting other folks at risk ....they are...

Last edited by bluedevilz; 11-14-2007 at 03:44 PM..
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:20 PM
 
5,360 posts, read 11,520,230 times
Reputation: 13194
Quote:
Originally Posted by grateful_chemist View Post
60-70 years ago we used lead and arsenic-based pesticides on our food. what's your point?

Moderator cut: orphaned

edited: what part of "religious exemption" falls under mandated by law?
Whats your point? What does have pesticide choice have to do with the proven effectiveness of vaccines over time??

Or do you care to dispute that?

Moderator cut: put down

As for your edit: um, you know the law that says you must vaccinate your children EXCEPT for cases of religious conflict, separation of church and state, constitution, any of this ringing a bell???

Last edited by Mattie Jo; 11-15-2007 at 04:19 AM.. Reason: orphaned
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:33 PM
 
3 posts, read 6,562 times
Reputation: 12
arsenic/lead in response to your "if you would have lived 60-70 years ago". That seemed like a good idea at the time, right? It worked. It kept bugs off our food.

And then you claim that "common sense and the law" mandate vaccines for children. But they don't. There are exemptions.

Hep B. Nice you bring that up. They wanted to give that vaccine to my newborn. After about 2 hours of living outside the womb. For a sexually transmitted disease. Um, what?
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:51 PM
 
5,360 posts, read 11,520,230 times
Reputation: 13194
Quote:
Originally Posted by grateful_chemist View Post
arsenic/lead in response to your "if you would have lived 60-70 years ago". That seemed like a good idea at the time, right? It worked. It kept bugs off our food.

And then you claim that "common sense and the law" mandate vaccines for children. But they don't. There are exemptions.

Hep B. Nice you bring that up. They wanted to give that vaccine to my newborn. After about 2 hours of living outside the womb. For a sexually transmitted disease. Um, what?
Apples and oranges....

1) Again what does the fact that a "poor" idea to put arsenic and lead on food have to do with a "good" idea of vaccines??

How do you even relate the 2? There is still no better medicine than preventative medicine, there is still no "cure" for polio, smallpox, tetanus, rabies, etc...

Vaccines worked then and they work now and there is no evidence they do harm...

2) It is still "mandated by LAW" that one vaccinate ones children, the fact that there are exemptions does not make it any less of a law.....many laws have exemptions

3) Hep B is a blood borne disease, not just a sexually transmitted disease, is it likely your child will come across infected blood maybe, maybe not, but again, if your child is exposed, its too late to vaccinate...
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:13 PM
 
47 posts, read 238,458 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Sorry, have to disagree here as well. You present both sides as if there is only implied cause and effect of vaccines on disease prevention and equal reason to link the rise of autism with the rise of vaccines.

Linking the rise of autism and autoimmune diseases to vaccine programs is trendy but not supported.
I really wish it was just a trend. Really, my life would be so much more carefree if I didn't try to keep up with all the research. Here's some fun reading that delves into the research on both sides of the debate if you're interested: Evidence of Harm


Quote:
There is a lot of misinformation circulating out there and the bottom line is even if people who choose not to vaccinate their kids think they are not putting other folks at risk ....they are...
Yes, there is a lot of misinformation circulating. And I would encourage every parent to talk with their doctors and do their own research. I think you'd find that most parents who choose not to vaccinate know very well the risks involved with the choice they are making. And it's important, also, to know of all the risks involved with vaccines (not just the... ahem, trendy risks).

I'm glad to hear that you are making choices for your family that give you peace of mind and that you are comfortable with. I think we should all be so blessed.
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