Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
From what I see IT IS a mix of fear and hyper-nationalism. Why can't a discussion of illegal immigration include non-extreme elements without being percieved as non-American? I don't understand why people automatically make these gross assumptions that if you don't want to deport or, even kill, illegal immigrants then you aren't American.
What's wrong with taking some elements that illegal immigrants, taking some elements of what some of you want and trying to make reform that ends up taking both sides into consideration.
For example DREAM. Why not make provisions that only allow those who gained admission to a vocational, undergrad, or graduate progam to have a temporary legal resident status. Said status would be revoked if program is not completed. A fine of $500-$1000 would be in place to enroll into program. Upon completetion legal status will continue for an additional 3 years in order to re-apply as a citizen or continue as a legal resident. Something those lines...obviously not completely hashed out since this is an internet forum.
Or for example doing away with birthright in addition with the previous suggestion.
Taking the best elements of both sides is probably going to be the best way for immigration reform.
Language and culture is only part of assimilation. Speak your native language, but learn the language of the land you're living in so that you can communicate with others. You aren't assimilated if you can't communicate with the majority of the population. Keep your culture, just don't expect me to change mine to accomodate yours.
That said, another part of assimilation involves loyalty to the new country. patriotism, and accepting the laws, and hopefully abiding by them. This country was built by people from all over the world. In the past they came here, became loyal citizens, fought in many wars, learned the language, and while celebrating their culture, embraced ours. No country can survive with dozens of different groups, each with their own language, culture, and traditions, who cling solely to those, instead of becoming part of this nation. Every country needs a population that will work together for the betterment of the country, and fight together if necessary, to defend it. We cannot afford to have a vast number of the population still clinging to, and loyal to, their country of origin. Americans are as a rule very patriotic, and we expect others who want to avail themselves of the benefits this country offers, to be the same.
For the last time! I am not demanding that they not speak another language out in public when they know how to speak English. What I said that IMO it is a non-assimilation factor. Don't start bringing other things into the mix. Religion is practiced behind closed doors not out in public for everyone to see or hear. We dont' have a "national" religion but we do have a "national" language. Let's not mix apples with oranges here.
I am understanding two different things from your posts and may be consfused as to what it is you DO want. I was under the impression that you wanted them to speak english in public, you thought it was rude not to. if that isn't what you want then I have read your posts wrong. but then you end your post mentioning our national language so not sure what you really mean, can you clarify?
The necessity for assimilation to a cohesive society have already been explained in here over and over. Why explain it to you again if you didn't get it the first time? I never said that someone shouldn't keep their native cultures and languages alive at home.
no, no one has tried to explain why people should assimilate only that they should. if macmeal's reasons are your as well my reaction would be to tell you that the concern is more than paranoid and way off the mark.
macmeal thanks for the reply, are you saying if immigrants do not assimilate, give up their culture and language they will be expressing themselves with the list of things you posted? I would think if that is the case you should worry too about the people who only pretend to assimilate.
can you say you are honestly worried we will have wide spread dog eating in the US because there are countries that eat dog and some might come here? that if they don't give up there dog eating ways and assimilate, that the practice will spread and we will all be having backyard dog BBQ's?
selling children into prostitution is happening now in our country and it is being done by americans as well as immigrants.
forcing pre-teen girls into marriage with adult men?
happens in utah and in texas with religions that believe in plural marriages, american men, american religions.
How about teaching your kids that the police are their enemy...
sometimes the police are your enemy, sometimes just because of the color of your skin. just because one wears a uniform does not mean that there are not corrup rotten apples in the police force.
or that religious rivals should be 'destroyed'?.....
we have religions that have been based in the US and have nothing to do with immigration that are completely intolerant of other religions. they teach their flock "their" god is the only true god and everyone who does not believe their way will go to hell. they may not have the fervor of a jihadist to kill americans, but we americans have out share of goofy bad news religion. jim jones comes to mind as does david karesh of waco, and warren jeffs just jailed for molesting and raping young girls. scott roeder murdered of dr. tiller was a bit of an extreme religion and anti government nut case... all americans
or that education is for males only...?
to fear our country would only educate males is paranoid at best. you really think the women of america would allow this to happen after we worked so hard to win the vote and get to where we are today? not a snow ball's chance as they say.
Any feelings about the pros and cons of female genital mutilation?
of course I think it is horrible enough to be beyond words. again it would not happen on a large scale no matter how many immigrants came to our country. the criminal that did this would be jailed and once in our prison system our felons would make short work of a person committing this type of crime.
How about a man's right to beat a wife..is it OK, if she 'gets out of line'?
this is not a problem that you find only in the immigrants world.....many american men do this now, not exclusive to the immigrant.
Do you object to a family using violence to exact revenge on a neighbor who's insulted them?....
happens now with americans, again not exclusive to immigrants
How about the 'honor killings' of promiscuous daughters...is that 'OK', or not?
again that has happened here I do believe the family was legal and the father and family members responsible have been put in jail.
failing to take into consideration that some people just don't respect laws much, anyway...particularly the laws of places foreign to them....
there is a criminal segment of every society that does not take the laws into account, america's prisons are filled mostly with american. this is not limited to the immigrant.
I'll also remind you that no culture, in and of itself, considers other cultures its equal. ALL cultures regard their standards as 'right', and the standards of other cultures as 'strange', 'odd', or just silly....
perhaps that is your view but it is not mine nor is it the view of millions of other people. millions of people view other cultures and other religions as equal.
When you propose that our society ought to 'reach out and embrace others..ALL others', you take a great risk, because it's altogether possible that some of these 'others' have no desire to embrace YOU;...then what? How tolerant do you want to be, of the intolerant.....
our country embraces others because we need other countries for trade, information and a host of other things. to exclude the world because someone might not like you is not the way or country operates. yes we should be alert to danger but we do and should embrace other cultures.
on the flip side of that, many people in the world have had no desire to have america in their country but we go anyway. sticking our selves in places that have no desire to embrace us. this is some of the reason we have people who hate and want to harm us.
So when you speak of 'celebrating our differences', just how do you propose to celebrate? don't think I have ever used the expression celebrate diffrences, I do however do not think other cultures should be feared or barred form our counrty fo fear we will be eating dog.
Are you suggesting that we FORBID certain cultures to 'practice' in our society, in non-harmful ways? Can you name a language, or a food, or a style of music or dress, or a religion,that we will NOT permit to be 'used' or enjoyed in this country? How do you propose we 'include' others, who are at this time, NOT included? I'm curious...I promise to listen. Hope to hear your thoughts soon. ....
don't think I ever said forbid anyone. I would not forbid any culture from wanting to live in the USA, I don't think our government advocates that either. our country does not jail or segregate people for what they might do, the police can't even arrest someone until they do something wrong.
Thanks for your reply. Admittedly, I've painted a 'worst-case scenario' regarding open-ended multiculturalism; nevertheless, I stand by what I say. The minute you FORBID any one of the practices I've laid out, you have, in fact, limited someone's right to practice or express his culture...and to that extent, you've set limits on what is acceptable in our society. To me, this is only common sense...but in a society with few common values, even "common sense" may not always be common...and what may be 'perfectly OK' with me, might be 'totally unacceptable' to you....and of no consequence at all to a third person.
Other things are less obvious...one of which is our system of laws. It would be impossible to live in a 'free' society, without a high rate of adherence to laws....(our system of laws is what makes our diverse society work...it's one of the few things we have in common). Illegal immigration is one example of some groups stating, in effect, that "my ethnic solidarity, and my loyalty to my group, overrides my duty to obey the law of the land"...it states, in essence, that group loyalty is more important than law. This will work, on a small scale..taking it society-wide, though, would quickly result in the collapse of our benevolent system, and necessitate a far LESS benevolent way of 'making' us obey laws, whether we felt like it or not. THAT'S the type of society I fear, and that's what will happen, if we all put personal or 'group' loyalties ahead of voluntary obedience to our laws. The world is full of places where people felt strongly connected to 'tribe', race, ethnicity, or 'in-group', while feeling not particularly connected with their fellow citizens....Yugoslavia, South Africa, the Soviet Union, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Cyprus, ...even Czechoslovakia. NONE of these places were able to continue to exist in any 'acceptable' form, because their loyalty to their 'in-group' was stronger than their identification as citizens. Three of these places, in fact, no longer even exist as nations...and all of them were..or are presently...engaged in bitter fighting and squabbling, mostly because their differing groups can't get along with the 'cultures' of their own fellow citizens.
So far, in the US, we've avoided most of this chaos..in my opinion, because we've minimized our differences, emphasized our commonalities, submitted ourselves to our own laws voluntarily, and agreed to live in an artificial, man-made 'culture' of common values and goals, as a nation. I want to see us continue that way...and I don't think we will, unless we continue to urge assimilation, rather than 'group rights'.
Language and culture is only part of assimilation. Speak your native language, but learn the language of the land you're living in so that you can communicate with others. You aren't assimilated if you can't communicate with the majority of the population. Keep your culture, just don't expect me to change mine to accomodate yours.
That said, another part of assimilation involves loyalty to the new country. patriotism, and accepting the laws, and hopefully abiding by them. This country was built by people from all over the world. In the past they came here, became loyal citizens, fought in many wars, learned the language, and while celebrating their culture, embraced ours. No country can survive with dozens of different groups, each with their own language, culture, and traditions, who cling solely to those, instead of becoming part of this nation. Every country needs a population that will work together for the betterment of the country, and fight together if necessary, to defend it. We cannot afford to have a vast number of the population still clinging to, and loyal to, their country of origin. Americans are as a rule very patriotic, and we expect others who want to avail themselves of the benefits this country offers, to be the same.
thank you jay, I can get my head around your post as it is not far fetched fear based reasoning. to play the devil's advocate I would say that most immigrants do speak enough english to get by and or they have someone around who does. I doubt there are many if any immigrants that expect us to change our lives to live more like the culture and land they left behind.
"still clinging and loyal to their country of origin" why is this assumed? the majority of hispanic illegals are here to work for money to send home. still clinging and loyal to their own country describes a foreign terrorist not a migrant worker who picks strawberries
Thanks for your reply. Admittedly, I've painted a 'worst-case scenario' regarding open-ended multiculturalism; nevertheless, I stand by what I say. The minute you FORBID any one of the practices I've laid out, you have, in fact, limited someone's right to practice or express his culture...and to that extent, you've set limits on what is acceptable in our society. To me, this is only common sense...but in a society with few common values, even "common sense" may not always be common...and what may be 'perfectly OK' with me, might be 'totally unacceptable' to you....and of no consequence at all to a third person.
Other things are less obvious...one of which is our system of laws. It would be impossible to live in a 'free' society, without a high rate of adherence to laws....(our system of laws is what makes our diverse society work...it's one of the few things we have in common). Illegal immigration is one example of some groups stating, in effect, that "my ethnic solidarity, and my loyalty to my group, overrides my duty to obey the law of the land"...it states, in essence, that group loyalty is more important than law. This will work, on a small scale..taking it society-wide, though, would quickly result in the collapse of our benevolent system, and necessitate a far LESS benevolent way of 'making' us obey laws, whether we felt like it or not. THAT'S the type of society I fear, and that's what will happen, if we all put personal or 'group' loyalties ahead of voluntary obedience to our laws. The world is full of places where people felt strongly connected to 'tribe', race, ethnicity, or 'in-group', while feeling not particularly connected with their fellow citizens....Yugoslavia, South Africa, the Soviet Union, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Cyprus, ...even Czechoslovakia. NONE of these places were able to continue to exist in any 'acceptable' form, because their loyalty to their 'in-group' was stronger than their identification as citizens. Three of these places, in fact, no longer even exist as nations...and all of them were..or are presently...engaged in bitter fighting and squabbling, mostly because their differing groups can't get along with the 'cultures' of their own fellow citizens.
So far, in the US, we've avoided most of this chaos..in my opinion, because we've minimized our differences, emphasized our commonalities, submitted ourselves to our own laws voluntarily, and agreed to live in an artificial, man-made 'culture' of common values and goals, as a nation. I want to see us continue that way...and I don't think we will, unless we continue to urge assimilation, rather than 'group rights'.
Thanks for your response...
thanks mac for yours, I understand better now from your first paragraph what it is you are getting at. I think I can relate it to a fear that we will become a nation of gangs like the warring crips and bloods that are now all over the country. we are a nation of laws and I do believe that the majority of immigrants legal or not are here to be decent citizens. our laws, our law enforcement tries to take care of the rest, removing them either from this country by deportation or putting them in jail. you are right in that we have minimized our diffrences and emphasized the commonalities. this is the only way we can remain peaceful. I do hope everyone that comes here can assimilate and be active parts of the community for the good. I do not want to us to be so strident that we make the immigrant feel they should no longer display loyalty to their heritage as this breeds resentment and can lead to the things you fear if left unchecked. warmest aloha
I am understanding two different things from your posts and may be consfused as to what it is you DO want. I was under the impression that you wanted them to speak english in public, you thought it was rude not to. if that isn't what you want then I have read your posts wrong. but then you end your post mentioning our national language so not sure what you really mean, can you clarify?
I hope this is the end of the conversation as it gets tiring repeating myself. Yes, I think they should speak English out in public if they know how to.
no, no one has tried to explain why people should assimilate only that they should. if macmeal's reasons are your as well my reaction would be to tell you that the concern is more than paranoid and way off the mark.
why do you want them to assimilate?
We've all tried to explain it in here already. Why is it not sinking in? I am not going to repeat myself over and over. Go back and read my posts and the others in here who are in agreement with me.
I hope this is the end of the conversation as it gets tiring repeating myself. Yes, I think they should speak English out in public if they know how to.
Pourquoi? Peut etre c'est parceque tu est un peut peur pour la change dans Les Etas Unis? Aujourd'hui, nous sommes plus cosmopolitan qu'avant. C'est le progres.
(sorry for any spelling mistakes, it has been a while).
Trans: Why? Maybe it's because you are a little afraid of change in the United States? Today we are more comsopolitan than before. That's progress.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
