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Thanks for your reply. Admittedly, I've painted a 'worst-case scenario' regarding open-ended multiculturalism; nevertheless, I stand by what I say. The minute you FORBID any one of the practices I've laid out, you have, in fact, limited someone's right to practice or express his culture...and to that extent, you've set limits on what is acceptable in our society. To me, this is only common sense...but in a society with few common values, even "common sense" may not always be common...and what may be 'perfectly OK' with me, might be 'totally unacceptable' to you....and of no consequence at all to a third person.
Other things are less obvious...one of which is our system of laws. It would be impossible to live in a 'free' society, without a high rate of adherence to laws....(our system of laws is what makes our diverse society work...it's one of the few things we have in common). Illegal immigration is one example of some groups stating, in effect, that "my ethnic solidarity, and my loyalty to my group, overrides my duty to obey the law of the land"...it states, in essence, that group loyalty is more important than law. This will work, on a small scale..taking it society-wide, though, would quickly result in the collapse of our benevolent system, and necessitate a far LESS benevolent way of 'making' us obey laws, whether we felt like it or not. THAT'S the type of society I fear, and that's what will happen, if we all put personal or 'group' loyalties ahead of voluntary obedience to our laws. The world is full of places where people felt strongly connected to 'tribe', race, ethnicity, or 'in-group', while feeling not particularly connected with their fellow citizens....Yugoslavia, South Africa, the Soviet Union, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Cyprus, ...even Czechoslovakia. NONE of these places were able to continue to exist in any 'acceptable' form, because their loyalty to their 'in-group' was stronger than their identification as citizens. Three of these places, in fact, no longer even exist as nations...and all of them were..or are presently...engaged in bitter fighting and squabbling, mostly because their differing groups can't get along with the 'cultures' of their own fellow citizens.
So far, in the US, we've avoided most of this chaos..in my opinion, because we've minimized our differences, emphasized our commonalities, submitted ourselves to our own laws voluntarily, and agreed to live in an artificial, man-made 'culture' of common values and goals, as a nation. I want to see us continue that way...and I don't think we will, unless we continue to urge assimilation, rather than 'group rights'.
Thanks for your response...
You do realize the practices stated were indeed a minority of the population of immigrants. That's like saying ALL Mormons practice polygamy. It's a vocal minority. You do realize how global cultures are becoming integrated. Facebook and Twitter are doing a lot more than allowing teens to post pictures and write ridiculous things.
South Africa and Cyprus aren't in any acceptable form? Neither is Russia (comprising the bulk of the former USSR)? Rwanda is actually becoming a poster child of conflict resolution and agricultural cooperatives for the rest of the continent.
The reason why the US has avoided said pitfalls is because we are richer. When you have an abundance of resources, one typically doesn't fight. It's not because of some false notion of always being homogenous. In fact, this is more a product of the war time propoganda starting at around WWI. Previous to this, differences were quite pronounced. Ever hear about the know-nothing party?
It's funny how much of our current notions of nationalism, patriotism, and immigration are based upon outright lies about previous generations.
It's also quite funny how people in these debates rarely take into account the increasingly global youth culture and how a middle class youth in Africa is more like a middle class youth in Europe who is kind of like a middle class youth in Asia who resembles a middle class youth in Australia who does the same things as a middle class youth in the Americas.
I hope this is the end of the conversation as it gets tiring repeating myself. Yes, I think they should speak English out in public if they know how to.
Having spent the better part of a lifetime among people who are bilingual...(or trilingual)...i.e., 'English and something else'...the GENERAL RULE among most of the people I've known is that, out in public, the POLITE thing to do, if you can, is to speak English..not because it's required...not because you're ashamed...not because you feel pressure...but because it's polite...
This archaic notion of 'being polite' by speaking English is probably on the way out now....and a new sense of assertiveness and 'me first' has cropped up. It's evidenced in many things...cell-phone 'clods' who dominate a restaurant, a waiting room, or an elevator with loud, one-sided conversations...those who blast loud music out of their cars....those who barge ahead to enter a doorway 'first'...and those who carry on loud conversations in public in languages foreign to the majority...None of these things are illegal...none of them are demonstrably 'wrong', and none of them are cause for action. Mostly, they're just rude..(at least, that's the way I was brought up)...but in an increasingly multicultural society, even the definition of 'rude' is up for discussion. Mostly, such people do these things because they 'can'..and that's the #1 rule, today, in our society.
By the way, I've known a NUMBER of Hispanics who CAN speak English, and do...but sometimes hesitate to do so, out among strangers, because they're embarrassed over their accent, or their struggles with English. This feeling I can certainly understand, and empathize with. Other times, a group of bilingual people will speak a foreign language for the benefit of ONE member, who may be unable to understand English.Not all 'foreign speakers' are out to disrespect the 'locals'....mainly, today, I think it's just our society's thoughtlessness and rudeness, being manifested in yet another way...
Having spent the better part of a lifetime among people who are bilingual...(or trilingual)...i.e., 'English and something else'...the GENERAL RULE among most of the people I've known is that, out in public, the POLITE thing to do, if you can, is to speak English..not because it's required...not because you're ashamed...not because you feel pressure...but because it's polite...
This archaic notion of 'being polite' by speaking English is probably on the way out now....and a new sense of assertiveness and 'me first' has cropped up. It's evidenced in many things...cell-phone 'clods' who dominate a restaurant or an elevator with loud, one-sided conversations...those who blast loud music out of their cars....those who enter a doorway 'first'...and those who carry on loud conversations in public in languages foreign to the majority...None of these things are illegal...none of them are demonstrably 'wrong', and none of them are cause for action. Mostly, they're just rude..(at least, that's the way I was brought up)...but in an increasingly multicultural society, even the definition of 'rude' is up for discussion. Mostly, such people do these things because they 'can'..and that's the #1 rule, today, in our society.
By the way, I've known a NUMBER of Hispanics who CAN speak English, and do...but sometimes hesitate to do so, out among strangers, because they're embarrassed over their accent, or their struggles with English. This feeling I can certainly understand, and empathize with. Other times, a group of bilingual people will speak a foreign language for the benefit of ONE member, who may be unable to understand English.Not all 'foreign speakers' are out to disrespect the 'locals'....mainly, today, I think it's just our society's thoughtlessness and rudeness, being manifested in yet another way...
thank you jay, I can get my head around your post as it is not far fetched fear based reasoning. to play the devil's advocate I would say that most immigrants do speak enough english to get by and or they have someone around who does. I doubt there are many if any immigrants that expect us to change our lives to live more like the culture and land they left behind. "still clinging and loyal to their country of origin" why is this assumed? the majority of hispanic illegals are here to work for money to send home. still clinging and loyal to their own country describes a foreign terrorist not a migrant worker who picks strawberries
I do believe most immigrants understand at least rudimentary English. However, I do not believe the same applies to most illegal aliens. If “most†understood English, there would be very little need to accommodate them by providing Spanish for every aspect of their lives.
You have aptly described most illegals. For the most part, they are here simply to earn money. They are not here to obey our laws, embrace our culture, or learn our language. In other words, they are not here to assimilate; and they do in fact cling to their culture, and their allegiance is to their country of origin. Why not? Why should we expect them to desire to become “Americans†when that is not their motivation for being here?
I believe if given the choice between remaining in this country, and returning home to livable wages and the opportunity to support their families, they would choose to return home. They remain here, not because they love the USA and want to become contributing members of this nation; rather, because they can earn more money here than they can at home. The impetus is money and benefits, period.
Yes, and the racism and group identity are on the part of the ethnocentrics and their illegal counterparts. Let me ask you this. How would Mexicans in Mexico feel about millions of anglos illegally invading their country sucking up their benefits, changing their culture and language and outbreeding them?
White people don't breed fast enough? You mean that most don't breed themselves into poverty with no thought as to how they will care for these many kids? Whites are breeding at replacement levels. I don't see the human race becoming extinct in this country anytime soon because of supposed low breeding levels of white people.
Oh yes, we can stop and control illegal immigration. It is not a natural phenomenom and it is against the law. You're fantasy of a Hispanic utopia in this country is just that.
Nice, that you speak with such glee over the dilution of a particular race by unnatural and illegal means.
I had to go to the Cabinet of Health and Family Services today to pick up something for a community organization and as I was waiting to speak with a supervisor there, I overheard a family from Mexico (I asked them where they were from later) speaking to a lady and the lady asked the young man and woman if their children were an "accidente" and the young couple started laughing and said, "Si, si (yes,yes)" and they were in there just waiting on child-care assistance and food stamps. Yes, I do not know if these people were illegally here, but it is obvious to everyone that a lot of immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala are having more children than they can afford and go to the social services offices to get help based on their children's birthright citizenship status (you should check the dollar amount of benefits going towards babies of illegal immigrants). With the percentage of illegal immigrant population, it's ridiculous the amounts that are having children and can get benefits. That office had a 30 chair section of Hispanic people (all segregated together, might I add, and I noticed that even if they didn't know one another, they would immediately go to that area of the room and lool at one another's babies talking about why they are there, how many children they have and how the social services is making them "wait too long." You come to this country and you have the nerve to complain?) and that section was half of the sitting area.
It's bad when any immigrant comes to a country and adds poverty, but when it is is illegal immigrants, it is even worse. If it isn't the hospitals/clinics, it is the social services offices, if it isn't the schools, it is the jobs.
First off... I didn't say it was right, it's just how it is. You can yell and scream and cry and whine about how terrible and unjust the whole thing is, but that won't change anything. Illegals will continue to stream across the border in huge numbers, have lots of babies and change your world.
So my thought is this: You can choose to be be a whiner, you can go do minute man citizen arrests and you can stand on the street corner with a sign, but you might as well be yelling at a thunderstom, telling it to go away.Along the way you will also encite hate, violence and suffering, and you will most likely loose in the end, nurse bitterness and be worse off than you began.
Or, you can find cover, get an umbrella or accept you are gonna get wet and go on with life.
People have abused government services for as long as there have been government services, illegals have been crossing borders for as long as there have been borders and populations have been usurping other populations for as long as there have been people.
I am not gonna waste time or effort fighting the waves, better to ride them instead.
Who's is crying? Yelling? And screaming? You're just playing that role of the understanding supporter of illegal immigration, that laid-back approach to illegal immigration. We choose not to play that role because we are seeing first hand what is going on and most likely have felt the effects of illegal immigration in various ways and degrees. That whole relaxed, accepting attitude that you got towards illegal immigration is fine ... for you. Keep thinking that nothing can be done about it. People aren't just online complaining. A lot of us are actually out getting communication accomplished with people who can attempt to make a difference. So, you can keep thinking that you can tell people to essentially get over it.
It's obvious that you have this vision and opinion of the people who are against the illegal immigration that we are having to put up with in the United States. You probably do not know what is really being done to combat illegal immigration. It's not just about blogging, it's about being knowledgeable of what is really going on, legalities, continually submitting recommendations to politicians, media outlets and community leaders, and knowing the right people. So, keep thinking that this is all about blogging, crying, or posting on the internet.
It's disturbing and yet hilarious that you wouldthink that only violence and hate can come from speaking out and taking action against illegal immigration as a US Citizen or legal resident. That shows your limited view on this. It's funny that you think that is the only result.
This guy says, "Go on with life," ... life includes illegal immigration for a lot of people in many areas in the US. Life is having programs cut in a city's school district because millions are going towards thousands of undocumented children that were brought along for the ride to the US. "Life" is a state's budget not being prepared for tens of thousands of illegal immigrants coming into the state and the climate of that state changing because of the budget shortfalls.
That's life. Grow up and do research on what is really going on in relation to illegal immigration before trying to tell others to just throw it to the way side or be as chilled about it as you or at least as you try to come off as.
They would feel the same way. I didn't say it was right, it just IS.
You are big on this "... it just is ..." thing. Just because something, " ... just is," doesn't mean that it is OK to allow that thing to remain unaddressed, untouched, or unapproached. You've got to be crazy to think that people are just going to sit back and do nothing or say nothing. This isn't people reading the news headlines and developing an opinion on illegal immigration, this is people who have knowingly lost jobs to illegal immigrants or are tired of knowing that in their child's school illegal immigrant children are getting more specialized education and attention than their own children. So, what is the point of this, " ... it just is ..." stance if you are not simply asking people to allow something as serious as illegal immigrant population growth unravel and just go on as if it is OK? What is the point and significance of your attitude if people aren't going to just sit back? You have to know that this is true, that people won't just allow their cities to go down because of gross (enormous) populations of illegal immigrants?
We've all tried to explain it in here already. Why is it not sinking in? I am not going to repeat myself over and over. Go back and read my posts and the others in here who are in agreement with me.
I have gone back and read your posts again. you have not explained assimilation other than to say you want them to speak english and act more like "americans" you quote other posters as excellent posts for saying hispanics are taking over and changing our country, that we no longer "look" like america of old days. all of this is not an explanation of why you think they should assimilate just fearful rhetoric that another culture is taking over our land. perhaps you should re read this thread and see how little you really have said.
Great insight....particularly the bolded. In addition to those you mentioned above as being concerned, fed up, and frustrated by the illegal situation, I can assure you from first hand experience that among their number is a pretty fair sprinkling of DESCENDANTS of illegals...those who are descended from a grandparent, etc., who was illegal. Imagine that!
I've known a number of these people myself...in fact, as members of the 'community', some of these people speak in harsh terms about illegals that would cause 'shock' if voiced by some PC 'outsider'. Obviously, their concern is not driven by racism...
Does this mean these people are 'disloyal to their own'?..does it make them 'hypocrites'...or 'self-hating Hispanics'? Not at all, in my opinion...they are simply Americans, speaking out against a huge current problem in American society...one that has the potential of reflecting badly upon THEM, and their loved ones.
I see nothing hypocritical or devious about anyone seeking to refute the wrongs done, the ignorance, or the short sightedness of his own ancestors. I have several ancestors who did things that I myself would never do, nor condone, today.
Illegal immigration was once a 'small thing'...a 'victimless crime'. So were a NUMBER of other things that went on in society, long ago. No one, in my opinion, should have to continue to support 'bad behavior', just because some ancestor engaged in it....and this includes illegal immigration, along with a lot of other things.
Just thought I'd add in this reminder of yet another group opposed to illegals..."bigoted white people"?...a few maybe...but also a WHOLE lot of UN-bigoted people, of a WHOLE lot of descriptions...
Thanks for your post..
I've talked to a few Hispanic people about illegal immigration. I don't know if they truly feel the way that they said (maybe they were just trying to appear bothered by it because they wanted to separate themselves from illegal immigration), but when they would talk, they would just shake their heads and say things about how they don't understand why they would come here without a job waiting or how they are making it hard for everyone else to be using social services. Sometimes the Hispanic person would bring up illegal immigration or a comment like that or a whole group will be talking about it. Yet, people always think it is only racists who oppose illegal immigration. It truly is about principles, disrespect, threatening people's money and quality of life.
I had to go to the Cabinet of Health and Family Services today to pick up something for a community organization and as I was waiting to speak with a supervisor there, I overheard a family from Mexico (I asked them where they were from later) speaking to a lady and the lady asked the young man and woman if their children were an "accidente" and the young couple started laughing and said, "Si, si (yes,yes)" and they were in there just waiting on child-care assistance and food stamps. Yes, I do not know if these people were illegally here, but it is obvious to everyone that a lot of immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala are having more children than they can afford and go to the social services offices to get help based on their children's birthright citizenship status (you should check the dollar amount of benefits going towards babies of illegal immigrants). With the percentage of illegal immigrant population, it's ridiculous the amounts that are having children and can get benefits. That office had a 30 chair section of Hispanic people (all segregated together, might I add, and I noticed that even if they didn't know one another, they would immediately go to that area of the room and lool at one another's babies talking about why they are there, how many children they have and how the social services is making them "wait too long." You come to this country and you have the nerve to complain?) and that section was half of the sitting area.
It's bad when any immigrant comes to a country and adds poverty, but when it is is illegal immigrants, it is even worse. If it isn't the hospitals/clinics, it is the social services offices, if it isn't the schools, it is the jobs.
once a child is born in america it is a citizen. we have tons of families who apply for welfare and food stamps to help them feed their children this is not limited to illegals. yes, the illegal parent may get a bit of food stamps and enjoy a meal or two from it but the same could be said for the american parent.
would you prefer that once the child is born that they starve and get no help just because their parent does not have a green card? stave until they are found out and deported?
it is human nature to go to a group of people who look like you and speak your native tounge.
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