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Two lawyers in my neighborhood have relocated to other areas because of what Robyn says is the issue. Left their families here though because of the housing market.
As a person who has practiced in a law firm, as a solo attorney and an in-house attorney, I have a fairly broad perspective on this issue. Full disclosure: it's been nearly a decade since I practiced as a solo in my own firm.
Although there are more attorneys, the growth should be measured against population growth to analyze active per capita attorneys. I suspect, there has been per capita growth, but it's much more than attorney growth that is causing the current attorney employment crisis.
Obviously, the economy has reduced the amount of demand for discretionary legal services, such as wills; but, there are structural changes that will persist when the current economic downturn subsides. Technology has made information more democratic; therefore, businesses are becoming more informed consumers of legal services. This has created many new trends. Here are a few new trends affecting job growth for new grads: 1) businesses are bringing more legal work in-house (typically attorneys with 5 plus years experience); 2) businesses are increasingly unwilling to pay for services that do not add value. For an example, an inexperienced associate attorney reviewing mountains of documents. Also, scanners have made this process more efficient ; 3) technology has reduced the advantages of big law firms (economies of scale); therefore, the legal profession is being fractured into more boutique type firms, which favor experienced attorneys. Smaller firms have less infrastructure, resources and time to train new attorneys.
Here is the good news: 1) certain practice areas are thriving; 2) it is easier than ever to start a firm. Technology has made the provision of legal services better and cheaper than ever before. 20 to 30 years ago (even 10 years ago) a secretary, an expensive law library, a billing clerk, expensive yellow pages advertising (for some lawyers) and space to store mountains of paper made the cost to start and maintain a law practice significantly more expensive. A lower cost structure means higher margins and more freedom. While the aggregate work may be spread out across more attorneys, the increased profit margin available to business savvy attorneys offsets some of the increase in competition.
Although there have been many successful attorneys starting solo out of law school, these folks are the exception rather than the rule. It's much better to start out working for others to gain experience prior to starting a firm. Getting a legal job with a Coastal JD is not going to be easy and $100,000 plus in non-dischargeable debt is going to make it much, much more difficult to keep the cost of starting a firm down. In my opinion, a Coastal degree is not worth $100,000 to $150,000 dollars of non-dischargeable debt.
If a person is interested in starting a firm, they're better off doing the leg work to get into a good, cheaper state school, such as UF, than taking the 4th tier route. A UF degree is worth $50,000 of debt. If you can't do the leg work to get into a good school, you need to ask yourself, are you going to be able to do the leg work to start your own firm? Also, information available on the Internet has made it easier for clients to evaluate the quality of an attorney's law school when making a retention decision.
Personally, I'd much rather operate in this environment than Robyn's legal environment of 20 to 30 years ago, but I wouldn't want to do so with a mountain of 4th tier law school debt. I started in the transition period, so I'm familiar with both worlds. I do not miss the dictation equipment, layers of support staff, filing cabinets, heavy case reporters, researching with digests and expensive Westlaw, and paper filing in Federal court.
904jax - I agree with just about everything you wrote. Still - you can't overlook the lawyer "overpopulation". When we came here in the early 70's - the population of Florida was about 7 million. Now it is about 19 million. There were < 20k lawyers in Florida then - close to 90K now. Perhaps we didn't have enough lawyers in Florida per capita in the 1970's - but I don't think so. Robyn
A large portion of that 90,000 are inactive attorneys. I think there are about 60,000 active attorneys (don't quote me, because it's based on memory). Florida may have a larger portion of inactive attorney, compared to other states, due to more middle-age folks relocating mid-career to late-career.
With longer lifespans, more women in the profession (which I view as a good thing) and a more complex economy with more non-attorney options for JDs, I suspect there were less inactive attorneys as percentage of the total thirty years ago.
One thing is for sure, there are plenty of attorneys. With Cooley coming to Florida, there will be many more attorneys in the coming years: http://www.cooley.edu/prospective/tampabay_admissions.html (broken link)
Took a quick look- and in 2005 there were 75k active members and 5k inactive members. The numbers don't necessarily paint an accurate picture - since some Bar members don't practice law (they're doing something else) - and some - like me and my husband - maintain active status even though we're retired (I doubt we will ever practice law again but it's easier to keep active status than go "inactive" and try to get back to "active"). Still - there are a heck of a lot of lawyers in Florida! Robyn
Sometimes in life you just have to be willing to go after your dream! Maybe your LSAT or GPA is not high enough to make it into a better school. Nonetheless, if you go to a lower rank school work your butt off to graduate within the top ten. In todays society people lack the "go get it attitude". There is nothing wrong with chancing an ambulance. Do you know how much money one injury case yeild an attorney? 3,000 + per case. a case load of 10 accidents yeild at minimum 30,000. I haven't seen a lawyer in the welfare line yet. Have any of you?
Don't go. No one hires from there, unless you want to work for the state or public defender. Even then, still hard to get a job.
It is also very expensive and the scholarship you got, expect it gone after your first semester. My entering class was 765. Coming here was the worst decision I have ever made in my life. The school makes it difficult to transfer. The Registrar's office is full of fat, snarky women and you cannot send your own transcript, they have to send it for you. They make you meet with the dean, who is difficult to get a hold of and his secretary has been here way too long because she has an even worse attitude than me.
The Bar passage rate is one of the lowest in the state, there is no campus (it is a business park that used to be where AT&T was located), and, generally, I have found that the people here are pretty stupid (and really fat).
Save yourself time, money, and happiness: Go to a real law school--not a for-profit one.
Just an FYI, two Yale professors recently published an article on the theory that universities should refund tuition to law students who drop out. The idea is if you give the tuition money back, those marginal students will be more fulfilled in other careers leaving a better (and smaller) class of lawyers (less lawyers, more good ones and then salaries/rates will rise).
Ask a lawyer you know, most will tell you the job isn't great, after all you are paid to fight with people (usually over money).
Law school isn't a ticket to easy street or riches anymore. My sister in law works for a big firm in Tampa, she is required to bill 55 hours a week and makes about 125K. Bonuses are tied to hours billed/settlements so you could take a 15-25K hit on your bonus if you have a bad year.
Just an FYI, two Yale professors recently published an article on the theory that universities should refund tuition to law students who drop out. The idea is if you give the tuition money back, those marginal students will be more fulfilled in other careers leaving a better (and smaller) class of lawyers (less lawyers, more good ones and then salaries/rates will rise).
That's about the stupidest theory I have ever read in my life.
I stumbled upon this post trying to find grade postings for this semester at fcsl.
Full disclosure: I am at or very near the top of my class at fcsl. Could have transferred, but my wife loves her job in jax and she makes six figures. I don't have the heart to move her out of that job. We are newly weds and we have spent enough time apart in the past--so me living elsewhere would not be healthy for our marriage, which I prioritize over my education, and any pedigree...
Also, fcsl, essentially, gives full rides for students like me. I appreciate that. Doing well, honestly, was just a matter of doing the work assigned (which is too much to ever finish), and studying all the time. I am no smarter than anyone else. I am just not lazy. You study all the time, and actually do the work, and you can easily be in the top 20% of your class.
I have had no problems getting interviews or opportunities thus far.
Now, my reason for posting this is think a lot of people posting here are missing the big picture. FCSL is just taking the hand out given to them by the federal government--the same handout given to all universities. You can bash FCSL... But like all government induced asset bubbles, take them out of the equation and the money find--and bid up--the price of something else.
WAY TO MANY students, in all colleges and grad schools, are in school to simply avoid the real world. If you subsidize something you get more of it. People are also not equal. No two people have the same talent or drive or work ethic. However, the government irrationally treats everyone equally in doling out student loan subsidies. Result = lots of idiots, losers, and people who have no business going to college--get to go. Worse yet, the universities give them utterly useless liberal arts degrees in fields that are meaningless to employers. All the while someone else pays for their vacation from the real world--known as college. That is true greed--getting someone else to pay for your life expenses (and college vacations) via the rule of law/gov't.
Huge percentages of students get subsidized (read tax payer paid) student loans and use them for fake ****, cars, spring break, and plainly-->to not work or start a career--or do anything productive. At least 50% of my class smokes dope at least once during the year. Many frequently. I got no problem with that. Probably the same at any university or law school now a days.. What I have a problem with--> is paying for their chosen intoxicant via subsidized student loans and grants! They also eat out every night and they drink every weekend with their government loans (cheese). Many drop out in all Universities after a short period. Even at "good schools." I also have no idea what the obsession with college football is around here--> but I stopped wearing shirts with other people's name printed on them--when I was twelve!
I think I read somewhere, 60% of undergraduate students do not have degrees within six years of starting their four year programs! It is pathetic. Undergraduate school is a joke for the cost--given most are not studying any rigorous fields involving math or science. Better to put the money in a deferred annuity and retire a millionaire.
Liberal arts = studying under water fire prevention and basket making--> in terms of having marketable and productive skills employers need and consumers want. Policy, international affairs, etc = qualified to work at starbucks. Why subsidize those crap degrees? Why subsidize any degree? Good intentions--> as usual = horrible results.
The "too many lawyers" problem would be solved instantly if the federal government stopped subsidizing people to go to ANY (law) school. The price of law school--and all college educations--would drop multiple times lower in a short time as schools would then have to compete for students and dollars. College tuition has risen 4X adjusted for inflation over the last 30 years. Talk about gauging and a total scam! If oil companies did that--it would be front pages. But for some, ridiculous, reason--the world of academics gets a complete pass!!!
There wouldn't be 50 administrators for every professor at colleges. Ridiculous benefits and salaries would be whittled down.. And professors and deans and baby deans (at yes even public schools) would not make millions per year. Universities would not sit on billions in endowments--yet demand more from state tax payers.
Only students capable or motivated to pay for--during college/grad school--or in the future and who are worthy credit risks--would attend.
My sister is a professor for a well regarded university. I know enough about how academia operates. It makes me sick.
The entire subsidized government system of education creates all the problems spoken of in this blog. FCSL is just one symptom. The 'too many lawyers' problem is just one symptom. If FCSL disappears--the problem continues--unaffected.
Guess what-->the world needs far more ditch diggers, engineers, manufacturers, and skilled trades people than professors, universities, and ivory towers. Move all the lawyers and academics to Africa and the entire population will still be poor. Most likely much worse off. Because, these people have a limited function in society. You only need a few of them. Someone like Steve Jobs--makes this economy and society tick... Lawyers do the opposite.
A few lawyers help society function--but do not create any wealth. Lawyers, specifically, do the opposite--they confiscate it. They legally pillage it. In the name of justice and all. Which in some cases is justified... But I have also read enough case law to know--that in the vast majority it is not... Ambulance chasers are motivated by greed--not justice. More justice doesn't mean an easier access to a law suit! More lawyers are being educated and laws made more liberal--simply to sustain the law profession. Sustain tons of schools, sustain police departments, sustain courts, and sustain related industries.
That is true greed. Greed taking from others that belongs to them by force of law.
In the economy RIGHT NOW:
Employers are looking over seas for skilled tradesman--in tons of fields--because they cannot find qualified employees domestically. These jobs pay VERY WELL. But under the gov't subsidized system--they go unfilled.
People who would fill them--are living in the temporary la la land--known as college. Induced to go by a free handout. And by the time they realize--college was a waste for them (other than the parties)--they have families and are too old to learn anything productive. They become bitter and lazy and just sloth through life. Demanding more handouts.
In sum, not that I disagree with anything said about FCSL.... But realize what causes the problem--AND IT IS NOT FCSL. The only fix is stop subsidizing schooling and universities and allow the market to function. That is, stop pushing kids into school that shouldn't go, and whom are better off having to work.
I have worked for universities in the past--as a college coach. We are doing no kids (or society) any favors by pushing kids into debt and college--who are not ready to go--or that should never go!
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