Florida Coastal School of Law...should I go? (Jacksonville, Orlando: broker, buyer)

[fsquid]

of course I'm not an attorney, I have a soul.

[madcapmagishion]

Originally Posted by fsquid

of course I'm not an attorney, I have a soul.

And his parents were married, And not brothers and sisters!

[fcsl13]

Originally Posted by fsquid

of course I'm not an attorney, I have a soul.

I think you are just too lazy to read... But I agree far too many attorneys have no soul. Personal injury and, well, almost the entire plaintiffs bar, jumps to mind.

[fsquid]

lazy to read that? yes. No doubt. I don't come to message boards to read a distortation.

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by fcsl13

I think I'm a pretty rational retired lawyer - with a good track record (second woman in Miami to get an AV Martindale/Hubbell rating) - and I disagree with both of these statements.


I think you're right in someways so i'll add a footnote to what I said... FCSL does a good job preparing students to be useful to someone who practices law--if that student takes advantage of what the school offers. No, no-one is ready to practice law or hang a shingle the day they graduate.... So that came out wrong.

What I mean is-->

FCSL offers a herd of legal editing and researching classes as well as a herd of seminars on writing, editing, and researching. Hell, they assume you know nothing and train you from the ground up. They mandate two semesters of legal writing classes. There requisite courses are geared towards the practitioner--not legal theory.

In contrast, I clerk with an attorney that graduated from an ivy league school--he made a comment one day when we speaking with him that his school required very little of that.

The school also has a herd of legal librarians, who will make you a master at researching if you ask. The school also has first class resources... Lexis and westlaw reps abound and will spend one on one time with students. Anyone who applies themselves and takes advantage of what the school offers--> will be useful to any attorney right out of law school-->that is what I meant...

As for the second comment--elitism... Read the background information in Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003)... The suit was basically a trial on the LSAT. Justice Thomas's comments are enlightening.

Law schools are totally elite. Not in terms of racial diversity. It is elite in terms of ideology. If you don't preach the (false) altruistic rhetoric on an application--I don't care what color you are--you ain't getting into law school!!!

If you don't get high LSAT score--you ain't going to a top school! Except a few minorities here and there... But again, these minorities are not diverse in thought. Go to any ivy league campus--I have spent some time at one--the students are black, white, asain, whatever--but 99% all Marxist. That ain't by coincidence. They are different all right; but all exactly the same!

I know for a fact FCSL--looks a bit beyond that... because my application letters, were, well--not altruistic. I am a non-apologetic capitalist. Maybe FCSL only cares about the color GREEN too.... I hope so. But anyway, at FCSL--the ideas and backgrounds of students are very diverse--in contrast to most any other law school campus...

I like that--and that is why I did not transfer--and I was excepted to far more prestigious schools (bull****ting on my application letters). The common guy off the street has a more realistic perspective of how the law is and should be -- than the trustfund brats who fill most law schools. Then again, I am the working class, first generation college grad, stiff that notices the difference.

Had to smile at your first observation. I had a professor in law school whose writings I found incomprehensible. And - since he was the professor - and I was the student - I thought it was me - that I wasn't smart enough. But - years later - there was an article in the American Lawyer about the top 10 "legal scholars" who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag - and that professor was at the top of the list .

When I got out of law school - I couldn't write my way out of a paper bag either. But my first job was in the appellate division of the Philadelphia DA's office - and my boss really knew how to write. How to wield a red edit pen as well. After about 2 years in that office - I wound up well on my way to becoming a good legal writer (good thing - because I was an appellate lawyer for the rest of my professional life).

I was always good at legal research. I retired before computer based research resources were commonplace and relatively cheap - but I did learn how to use them. The best thing about computer based resources is they pretty much force you to learn Boolean logic searches. I do very little legal research today - but I can find just about anything on Google in < 5 minutes (from finding a good recipe to info about how to remove a stain to the current status of the nuclear situation in Iran).

I think that when I went to school - schools tended to be liberal. But today liberal orthodoxy - especially in the "soft studies areas" - is compulsory (except for the occasional token conservative professor). Even when alumni try to do something - like they did at Dartmouth - their efforts almost always fail. E.g.,

How Dartmouth Thwarted Its Alumni

Robyn

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by fsquid

jesus, you write long posts. Cliff notes anywhere?

Don't know whether you were talking to fcsl13 or me - but haven't you heard the old saying - "if I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter?"

The number of edits when I write correlates with how important the writing is. A brief for the United States Supreme Court would get about 20 edits. A chat board message - only a quick spell check.

And - if you're you're not interested in reading about the subject - you can always skip the thread. Robyn

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by fcsl13

I agree with you 100%. Even though I'm not sure that is the only factor (but it's certainly a significant factor). What other factors do you think might come into play?

(1) The world only NEEDS a few professors... But it's such a cushy job, academia has gotten into bed with gov't to creating too many overpaid professors. (2) There are as many administrators as professors (or teachers) at colleges (or k-12 gov't monopoly schools) now.

As tuition costs rise from over hiring and over paying--the gov't just increases it subsidies. Students don't even know how much money they are spending on tuition.

(3) The non-profit status of schools (and the NCAA, and political organizations) is ridiculous. There is nothing "non-profit" about the salaries and benefits of college employees and professors! Some of richest people in states are academic Deans and College Football/basketball coaches.

The tax exempt status kills competition. Gov't and "non-profit" academia have their own little cartel. FCSL could never compete b/c they will never accrue massive (bogusly tax free) endowments.

The few professors I know these days (mostly at UF in the sciences) are a curious lot. They don't make a ton of money (although they do ok). But at least the ones I know are very committed to their areas of interest/research (even though they teach large undergraduate classes as well as smaller graduate classes). And the older they get - the more they seem to want to make an impact in terms of their areas of interest - leaving a legacy. One of our friends left UF recently - because a university in another state gave him an offer he couldn't refuse in terms of grant money for work in his specialty - an offer that UF couldn't match. Big loss for UF - because he was not only an excellent researcher - but a talented teacher who taught students from freshmen to graduate students.

FWIW - until recently (and perhaps even today) - the 3 highest paid government employees in Florida were the football coaches at UF - and FSU - and a big deal heart surgeon at UF Shands Gainesville (in that order). Robyn

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by fcsl13

I think you are just too lazy to read... But I agree far too many attorneys have no soul. Personal injury and, well, almost the entire plaintiffs bar, jumps to mind.

My husband only did personal injury work (mostly medical malpractice) and I did a lot too. What does a soul have to do with anything? We were good at what we did - and gave our clients their money's worth (which was nothing if they didn't receive any money as a result of a settlement or jury verdict). When I need surgery - I don't care whether my surgeon has a soul - or is trying to welch on child support. I just care whether he/she is a good surgeon. Ditto with my plumber - and most other people I hire. And note that the surgeon and the plumber will both send me bills even if they screw things up.

FWIW - I have hired lawyers over the years - and the worst I have dealt with are a couple of estate planning lawyers (the documents will be ready in 4 weeks and will cost X - and they're not ready until 6 months later and I get a bill for 3X - because the associate to whom the work has been delegated doesn't know what the heck he or she is doing). Also note that we changed estate planning lawyers when we moved here - and are very happy with the lawyer we have here now (he is extremely competent - work gets done when he says it will be done - and bills are in line with cost estimates). BTW - I know more than a fair amount about estate planning and taxes - and can tell whether I'm dealing with someone competent - or am being taken for a ride. Robyn

[fcsl13]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

the worst I have dealt with are a couple of estate planning lawyers

Lets just say I am going to agree to disagree on this one... I would go into more detail; however, I have to draw a line with my posts ... I am sure any appellate attorney can figure that out and understand.

I will say--i have no idea what the plaintiffs bar was like, or what med mal suits were like in years past--but today--in my personal experience, I stand by my statements. Not to say there are not some egregious cases of negligence and therefore exceptions. But that is the exception and not the rule.

As for the college professor discussion. They teach a couple hours a week, they get every holiday you can think of and summers off. Many get paid sabbaticals. Then move on to the baby deans and deans. Check their salaries. both on the admin and educational side.

yeah... I got no lost sleep for academics. The only job in the country--where other people, by right of citizenship, borrow money (at subsidized rates) from the gov't to pay them!!!

Worse yet--how well they teach matters ---> ZERO. they can be the worse teachers in the world--but published--and they make fat cash--for spewing bullsh*t to skulls full of mush who suck up none of it... Your professor who could not write to save his life--sounds like a prime example.

Even worse--most of the "research" they do to get published--they hire out students--who are already paying them in tuition--at slave rates to do his or her work for them!

Then once you get tenure--hahaha--better than union work! Never get fired no matter how useless you are. Ahh... stick it the tax payer some more.

Then there is the grants you speak of---> total and complete make work.... If it ain't profitable for the private sector---as a general rule, it shouldn't be done. The "public good" that comes out of studying the bullsh*t they get money to do---is none existent.

The only "public good" out there in the real world--is a profitable business. This week facebook comes to mind. Steve jobs comes to mind. those people do more "public good" in a week than the government grants do in a century.

Yeah... academia is a joke.... Not to say I don't like or respect some of my professors--but I don't ever want to hear them complain!

The ironic part is--that when (not if) the student loan asset bubble pops--and it will.... Just like the mortgage crisis.. Students with absolutely useless degrees (in "international affairs" and "international law" and whatever other made up curriculum--just to give another professor a job) and no job prospects will refuse to pay back loans...

All those precious academic jobs are going to eviscerate.... Professors sew the seeds of their own unemployment check when they preach the virtues of "right to an education...."

[fcsl13]

P.s. I have dealt with a really shi*ty estate attorney... pawning off total rip off boiler plate as work product.