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And I would prefer that my landscaper have a PhD in organic chemistry with a focus on botanical membranes. But, I can't afford to hire one just like the taxpayers can't afford these ridiculous salaries for someone to go to conferences, sit on committees, lobby for grants, and dictate thank you letters.
+1 couldn't have said it better myself. It's ridiculous how some of these clowns will justify a $400k+ salary for someone in charge of 1 school district.
Do you know the work that goes into receiving a Doctorate Degree at Harvard or Columbia or UC Berkeley (top Educational graduate programs in the US)?
Would you prefer the recipients of your tax funds be someone like Cathie Black who has no educational experience, nor holds the credentials necessary by the state to do the job she does? (requiring a second hire involved in her approval)
I can understand not wanting these people on payrolls; but if you are going to have someone on payroll, I would expect them to be a published expert in the field.
Chancellors, superintendents are managers first and foremost. There are managers that exist in industry that may not have direct experience in the field but have good people skills, able to motivate and surround themselves with smart people. Why do you think the city of NY is any different than a large company as far as the management end? Did Joel Klein do a good job as chancellor?
It's a bit premature to judge Cathie Black and criticize because she doesn't have an education background, what does a published expert in education expert bring to the table when it comes to managing people?
Actually from what I have seen the administrators on LI are a self serving closed club that unecessarily increase the cost of education. By the way Cathie Black's salary is $250K with over 1 million students, less than most of the 200 scholl administrators on LI. I would welcome any superintendent with some common sense business experience.
Chancellors, superintendents are managers first and foremost. There are managers that exist in industry that may not have direct experience in the field but have good people skills, able to motivate and surround themselves with smart people. Why do you think the city of NY is any different than a large company as far as the management end? Did Joel Klein do a good job as chancellor?
It's a bit premature to judge Cathie Black and criticize because she doesn't have an education background, what does a published expert in education expert bring to the table when it comes to managing people?
Actually from what I have seen the administrators on LI are a self serving closed club that unecessarily increase the cost of education. By the way Cathie Black's salary is $250K with over 1 million students, less than most of the 200 scholl administrators on LI. I would welcome any superintendent with some common sense business experience.
Honestly, I could care less about the fancy degrees. I have one, and I'll be the first to tell you that they are an overrated way of quickly trying to take the measure of someone without finding out what their true value is. I had classmates that graduated with me from a top 10 school and I wouldn't let them wash my car. Some of them are currently unemployed because output is a product of education, skill, work ethic, drive, and ability to adapt. Like any product equation, if one of the variables is a zero, then the total product is a zero. Unfortunately, our society is geared towards disqualifying someone for not having formal education in a subject.
Funny story: My first hire was an assistant who had a Harvard undergraduate in marketing/communications and her resume was amazing. I had to fire her about 6 months later, because they didn't teach coming to work on time, taking clear messages, and work ethic during her 4 year/ 120k education.
02-07-2011, 10:36 PM
grant516
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight
Chancellors, superintendents are managers first and foremost. There are managers that exist in industry that may not have direct experience in the field but have good people skills, able to motivate and surround themselves with smart people. Why do you think the city of NY is any different than a large company as far as the management end? Did Joel Klein do a good job as chancellor?
It's a bit premature to judge Cathie Black and criticize because she doesn't have an education background, what does a published expert in education expert bring to the table when it comes to managing people?
Actually from what I have seen the administrators on LI are a self serving closed club that unecessarily increase the cost of education. By the way Cathie Black's salary is $250K with over 1 million students, less than most of the 200 scholl administrators on LI. I would welcome any superintendent with some common sense business experience.
I view the job of school chancellor as an educator first, and a manager far after that.
If it's 'so simple' to get a degree that leads to certification in school administration, why not have her do that before she works the job?
She quite very well, may, be a quality manager- and possibly could be a fantastic educator. However is it fair to all the subordinates she manages that she avoided ALL the bureaucratic rules and licensing required for her job?
1 Million students or 5000 students, I imagine both types of administrators work 40 hours a week, for the full administrative year (11 month).
Are they bettering the education quality of the district?
Are they addressing concerns within the community about the schools?
Are they putting on high functioning out-of-school-day programs for the community?
Are high schoolers getting scholarships, academic awards, and going to Ivy League and top notch schools?
Are they applying for and receiving large grants from companies and government levels that lessen the burden on the taxation district.
If they aren't... they hell, I'm with you. Fire the person and take someone else. If you're paying someone top dollar, as these admin teams are making- you should be able to pick from top quality candidates, and expect HIGH results.
Do you know the work that goes into receiving a Doctorate Degree at Harvard or Columbia or UC Berkeley (top Educational graduate programs in the US)?
Are you talking MD, DDS, PhD or the thoroughly discredited Ed.D? Who is talking about generic doctorates form Harvard, Colombia and UC Berkeley? Focus.
Bottom line is that it isn't necessary to pay someone 400K to run a school district. You can get executive level people for significantly less than that.
02-08-2011, 10:49 AM
grant516
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter
Are you talking MD, DDS, PhD or the thoroughly discredited Ed.D? Who is talking about generic doctorates form Harvard, Colombia and UC Berkeley? Focus.
PhD and EdD are interchangeable, minus a language requirement of the majority of PhD programs (in the world). As Education is a philosophical endeavor, all EdDs are PhDs in their respective field.
Some schools today are ordering up SocDs, and PsyDs; at a point the schools believed the specifics made for a more marketable title.
They are all based in their 'meat and potatoes' dissertation research and publication.
Harvard University was the first US University to grant an Ed.D degree, and Columbia was the first to offer a Ph.D in the field of Education(al research).
The University of California grants terminal degrees in a field of educational research with an Ed.D or PhD- based on choices in research or service- both requiring the same amount of effort.
Columbia's Ed.D program is more rigorous than (nearly all of) their Ph.D programs as one requires 90 points of study, the other only 72.
If you went to Harvard to study any of the fields that would lead you into the career path of school administrator, it would be impossible for you to graduate with a PhD, only an EdD.
These are not bogus schools, or fly by night degrees.
I would certainly be the first person to question anyone with a graduate degree in educational leadership from the Catherine Gibbs schools- but I don't think those are the people you are seeing hired- and it's certainly not the credentialing of the woman in question from Syosset.
Please fill me in on the discrediting of Doctors in the field of Education.
To my knowledge, they represent the vast majority of University professors, and researchers in education starting from the 1990s and on, and have been around for almost 100 years.
I'm sure you have enlightening words that I can share with Arne Duncan if I run into him again.
PhD and EdD are interchangeable, minus a language requirement of the majority of PhD programs (in the world). As Education is a philosophical endeavor, all EdDs are PhDs in their respective field.
Some schools today are ordering up SocDs, and PsyDs; at a point the schools believed the specifics made for a more marketable title.
They are all based in their 'meat and potatoes' dissertation research and publication.
Harvard University was the first US University to grant an Ed.D degree, and Columbia was the first to offer a Ph.D in the field of Education(al research).
The University of California grants terminal degrees in a field of educational research with an Ed.D or PhD- based on choices in research or service- both requiring the same amount of effort.
Columbia's Ed.D program is more rigorous than (nearly all of) their Ph.D programs as one requires 90 points of study, the other only 72.
If you went to Harvard to study any of the fields that would lead you into the career path of school administrator, it would be impossible for you to graduate with a PhD, only an EdD.
These are not bogus schools, or fly by night degrees.
I would certainly be the first person to question anyone with a graduate degree in educational leadership from the Catherine Gibbs schools- but I don't think those are the people you are seeing hired- and it's certainly not the credentialing of the woman in question from Syosset.
Please fill me in on the discrediting of Doctors in the field of Education.
To my knowledge, they represent the vast majority of University professors, and researchers in education starting from the 1990s and on, and have been around for almost 100 years.
I'm sure you have enlightening words that I can share with Arne Duncan if I run into him again.
As a start, the Long Island bunch running the school disricts are primariliy comprised of Adelphi and Hofstra Ed.D's. Beyond that, Mr. Duncan, the former superintendent of the Chicago Public Schools and current Secretary of Education, does not have an Ed.D. Good luck in your chat with him. Ask him why Joel Klein, the former long term chancellor of the 1,000,000-student NYC public Schools system didn't get that worthless degree either? It is no secret that the Ed.D is not worth the paper it is printed on (Catherine Gibbs allusions notwithstanding). But you are correct that professors and researchers in the ivory towers of graduate education departments do tend to hold Ed.D's. That has nothing to do with running a school district.
02-08-2011, 02:59 PM
grant516
n/a posts
... and Joel Klein is still to this day, a businessman and not an educator- nor do I think he was miraculously successful with the NYC public schools. He too should have been given given a credentialing waiver.
Adelphi does not have any doctoral granting programs in Education.
... and as with Hofstra, on paper it appears to be a pretty substantial program with varying qualities of dissertation work- and high enough (on paper) standards for admissions. The only downside I see with this program is it is specifically geared towards the job of school district leadership; such a program however is a requirement of the 2008 changes to being state certified to lead building or district administration. (The kind of law that Black and Klein skated right around)
It's up to the individual district to pick and choose who to run their schools- but as I've said before they certainly have the right to be choosy at this point.
The thought that these high profile admins have little work to do, does the raise the question of districts of similar incomes / similar goals, should be merged into a greater district.
A one county system would be devastating, but I could certainly understand why the joint management of places not too large, but very similar in population could be merged to unite for cost saving expenditures.
... and Joel Klein is still to this day, a businessman and not an educator- nor do I think he was miraculously successful with the NYC public schools. He too should have been given given a credentialing waiver.
Adelphi does not have any doctoral granting programs in Education.
... and as with Hofstra, on paper it appears to be a pretty substantial program with varying qualities of dissertation work- and high enough (on paper) standards for admissions. The only downside I see with this program is it is specifically geared towards the job of school district leadership; such a program however is a requirement of the 2008 changes to being state certified to lead building or district administration. (The kind of law that Black and Klein skated right around)
It's up to the individual district to pick and choose who to run their schools- but as I've said before they certainly have the right to be choosy at this point.
The thought that these high profile admins have little work to do, does the raise the question of districts of similar incomes / similar goals, should be merged into a greater district.
A one county system would be devastating, but I could certainly understand why the joint management of places not too large, but very similar in population could be merged to unite for cost saving expenditures.
Scratch Adelphi, the superintendent I have in mind for that has a Masters from there but her ED.d. is from Dowling (!). Enough said. And Hofstra...ahem - let's just say it ain't Harvard. That is really not the point, it is an open secret the degree means nothing and certainly is not an indicator of success or even an indication of any sort of preparation for the role of superintendent.
It is not so much the superintendents here in Nassau and Suffolk having little work to do... it is the ridiculous salary, lack of talent, and the relentless self promotion.
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. Enough said. And Hofstra...ahem - let's just say it ain't Harvard. That is really not the point, it is an open secret the degree means nothing and certainly is not an indicator of success or even an indication of any sort of preparation for the role of superintendent.
