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It is very common in our society for people to want to point the finger at some outside factor creating havoc in their lives. People do not want to accept personal responsibility for the choices they make and the consequences of their actions.
If you are over forty, essentially everyone you have ever known has been vaccinated against measles, mumps, rubella.
Of all those people how many have even complained of a vaccine-related injury (let alone proven one)?
My wife is a special education teacher. There is no scientific data that she is aware of, but her unscientific personal observations tell her that many children with autism or disabilities come from one or two parents with a higher disposition for these traits.
Many parents are waiting until their late thirties or early forties now to have children... I would venture that that choice has much more to do with autism and disabilities than any vaccine.
But again, everyone wants a bogey man to point the finger at.
Isent it pretty much a proven fact that the older the age when giving birth the more likely the child is to have severe disabilities?
But hey, like you said people want to point fingers ...
True..same could be said when it comes to religion & politics.
Moral of this thread is everyone wants to push & prove their beliefs on you.
OK come on now attack me directly for that comment..when we all know it is 100% true.
In and of itself, an individual's religious choice does not have the potential to physically harm others. So the comparison of vaccinations to religion is not an apt one. The better comparison is drunk driving. If you want to drink (your choice), your freedom to get behind the wheel of an automobile is curtailed by law.
No one on this thread is proposing that vaccines be forced on anyone. The argument is that they should be restricted from doing things that have the potential to affect others, in particular, infants who are too young to be vaccinated.
Choices have consequences, and those who choose not to be vaccinated should be the ones bearing the burden of those consequences. There is no reason why my child should contract the measles because you chose not to vaccinate your child and then let them act as a carrier for the illness, so your child should have to live within the confines of restrictions imposed to prevent exposure.
In and of itself, an individual's religious choice does not have the potential to physically harm others. So the comparison of vaccinations to religion is not an apt one. The better comparison is drunk driving. If you want to drink (your choice), your freedom to get behind the wheel of an automobile is curtailed by law.
No one on this thread is proposing that vaccines be forced on anyone. The argument is that they should be restricted from doing things that have the potential to affect others, in particular, infants who are too young to be vaccinated.
Choices have consequences, and those who choose not to be vaccinated should be the ones bearing the burden of those consequences. There is no reason why my child should contract the measles because you chose not to vaccinate your child and then let them act as a carrier for the illness, so your child should have to live within the confines of restrictions imposed to prevent exposure.
First off you mis-read my comment. Was not comparing anything. Just basically saying people always push their agenda on anything whether it be this topic or religion or politics. All 3 as separate issues. Was not just pointed to the 1 topic being discussed here.
Also if the vaccines actually work why would one worry about their child getting the measles form an person that is not vaccinated??
First off you mis-read my comment. Was not comparing anything. Just basically saying people always push their agenda on anything whether it be this topic or religion or politics. All 3 as separate issues. Was not just pointed to the 1 topic being discussed here.
Also if the vaccines actually work why would one worry about their child getting the measles form an person that is not vaccinated??
How many times are you going to ask the same question and ignore the very sensible, credible and true answers that people have replied with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
We just ignore all the people who took the same vaccine and did not get sick, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey
Given that people have cited decades of peer reviewed independent medical research support the conclusion that the vaccines prevent the spread of deadly diseases while creating little to no risk, while NYCTelevisionWriter clings to his position relying exclusively on falsified study whose primary proponent got her medical degree from Singled Out, I don't think that a rational debate/discussion is a possibility here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey
If a vaccine fails to work for 1 in 1,000,000 (or even 1 in 100,000) but protects the others, I would say that it is more than a "money maker" since it immunizes the other 999,999. Moreover, even for the 1 person whom the vaccine did not immunize, it still offers significant protection for them by limiting their potential exposure from live strains transmitted from others. By immunizing and eradicating the virus from other potential hosts, a non-immunized person has a materially reduced chance of catching the virus in the first instance.
If you follow that logic, however, you soon realize that people who choose not to get vaccinated (or not have their kids vaccinated) are not only being thick-headed due to the fact that there is no evidence of any down-side to being vaccinated, they are dangerously selfish because they help injure others who are not fortunate enough to have effective vaccination as an option. Imagine you, personally, contributed to the 5-year-old's death because, despite the fact that you could have been vaccinated against the flu, you chose not to do so and passed the virus along to her. That is the risk that every anti-vaxxer takes when they chose not to receive vaccines. Its not materially different than drunk driving, really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Not every vaccinated child is protected by the vaccine. So, yes, an unvaccinated child can be a danger to a vaccinated one. Unvaccinated children are also a danger to other unvaccinated children, including infants too young for vaccines and those with medical conditions that prevent them from taking vaccines, such as cancer.
Fact - ZERO people have died from the Measles in the last 10 years in the USA.
Truth - Hundreds have died from vaccines and thousands have been disabled and suffered major side effects from receiving toxic vaccines.
Fact - Prior to the ubiquity of a polio vaccine, in 1950 alone 57,628 cases of polio were reported, almost exclusively in children under 5 years old. Of that number, 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis.
Truth - In the two years before Dr. Jonas Salk's polio vaccine was made widely available in 1955, the average number of polio cases in the U.S. was more than 45,000. By 1962, it was 910. There have been no cases of wild polio reported in the US in two decades. If you extrapolate the numbers, this has saved somewhere between 2,500 and 4,500 children's lives and prevented serious paralysis in approximately 20,000 people ANNUALLY. In other words, even without taking into account an increase in population, the polio vaccine has saved somewhere around 210,000 lives and prevented 1.2 million people from developing paralysis.
There have been virtually no confirmed cases of the IPV polio vaccine having adverse effects. 1 in 750,000 people had adverse effects from the OPV polio vaccine, which is no longer used in the US or most first-world counties.
Lets break it down in simply form: Polio vaccine has saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of infants and prevented over a million from become paralyzed. The current polio vaccine has no reported cases of adverse effects (the one study that supported such a conclusion was discredited in such grandiose fashion that its author was stripped of his medical license for fraud). What is the anti-vaccine argument here?
First off you mis-read my comment. Was not comparing anything. Just basically saying people always push their agenda on anything whether it be this topic or religion or politics. All 3 as separate issues. Was not just pointed to the 1 topic being discussed here.
Also if the vaccines actually work why would one worry about their child getting the measles form an person that is not vaccinated??
Not every child can get vaccines (too young or those with autoimmune problems, primarily). Also, not every vaccine is 100% effective. However, widespread vaccinations reduce carriers of the viruses and thus insulate those who are not fortunate enough to be effectively vaccinated from their spread.
And pointing out scientific and objectively disproven arguments is not "pushing an agenda" any more than pointing out that the Earth revolves around the Sun undermines your right to believe that the converse is true.
Frankly, I don't understand this is so difficult to grasp - these are simple concepts. But instead, its like trying to teach advanced calculus to a giraffe.
Its not worth the argument or the time. There is no reason, no fact, no logic that can get through. There will always be a counter argument to the facts.
This thread is from 2009 right? 6 years old? And from your "current" conversation you see you get no where.
Its sad, disappointing and alarming ESPECIALLY now with this measles outbreak. Sadly, children are going to start dying because of this outbreak. Maybe it will be a wake up call for the country.
Its not worth the argument or the time. There is no reason, no fact, no logic that can get through. There will always be a counter argument to the facts.
This thread is from 2009 right? 6 years old? And from your "current" conversation you see you get no where.
Its sad, disappointing and alarming ESPECIALLY now with this measles outbreak. Sadly, children are going to start dying because of this outbreak. Maybe it will be a wake up call for the country.
But its not worth your time anymore.
But given that the supposed link to autism has been disproven, I really am trying to understand what the argument is. What's the reasoning behind not wanting vaccines? The subjective fear that they somehow harm you? That claim could apply to virtually anything on Earth - from Tylenol, to cell phones, to cars, to sleeping on your side. In fact, some of those things actually have some scientific data to support the conclusion that they are harmful. With vaccines, there is no such support. Why randomly pick vaccines to rail against?
But given that the supposed link to autism has been disproven, I really am trying to understand what the argument is. What's the reasoning behind not wanting vaccines? The subjective fear that they somehow harm you? That claim could apply to virtually anything on Earth - from Tylenol, to cell phones, to cars, to sleeping on your side. Why randomly pick vaccines to rail against?
I have someone who thinks like this. There is no reasoning with fact. It ALWAYS comes back with a counter argument.
These are their arguments:
1. The ingredients. There was an argument about Thimerasol a few years ago. But the big argument is "do you know what's in there" or "have you read the insert". I can HONESTLY say I get where they come from. Some of the ingredients are scary. However they don't actually understand that its all in exposure. And amount. The amount of the ingredients are SO minimal that its a non issue. You will HEAR "well XYZ is in there and causes XYZ". Yes, in massive quantities. So that's one of the main arguments. the ingredients.
2. Which leads to the blood barrier (or something like that) all the vaccinations cross the blood barrier (or whatever the term is that's used). Again, this has no baring on what they SAY leads to problems with vaccinations.
3. Their tiny bodies cant absorb all that poison in one sitting. Right. Because your pediatrician is out to kill your kid. And this point goes back to the insert. They will say that most doctors don't even know what's in the vaccinations. That's probably true. But I bet the doctors also know that there is not enough of "X" in there to hard your child.
3. WE only had a total of 12 vaccinations. They now have 30 (or whatever the number is). Yes its true. There has been more scientific advances
4. You want to inject my perfect baby with Hep B vaccination when they are 2 hours old??? No way!!! Again, I have heard this over and over again. How people say that their little bodies cant handle the poison 2 hours after they are born. Plus they would NEVER get Hep B so its absolutely not necessary. I tried to explain to a friend that what happens if there was a complication (god forbid) with the baby and the baby needed surgery..and one of the nurses had Hep B.
5. My kid would NEVER get Polio...mumps...measles. And if they did their immune system would just fight it off.
~To me this is the most critical of the arguments. They actual believe that washing their hands, eating right, and not having vaccines makes a great immune system that will fight off the measles. Or the flu. Or..whatever. They don't get that the flu kills more kids every year than anything else.
~The other VERY scary part of this is that their kid COULD get polio. Or the measles. Look at Disney World. A kid from a foreign country brought it with him. YOUR child sits next to a child in school EVERY day that has family that's going to third world countries. Who is not vaccinated. Its VERY unlikely, but can happen. And we know the reason Polio is eradicated (IN THE USA) is because of the vaccination.
6. You can get flu from the shot. We all know this is not true. At all.
7. MMR causes Autism - There is very little logic here anymore, yet a lot of people hold onto this with a passion. This is self explanatory and does not need to be discussed.
8. Vaccines ONLY make money (mostly about the FLU, but other ones). Again, they don't get that the government actually mandates that the Pharma companies make the vaccines. There is no choice. They LOOSE money on the flu vaccine. Now, they DO make money on others. No question.
9. If the vaccines work why do so many people come down with the "X". The logic behind even voicing this statement by the anti Vax camp is one I cant even dignify with a response. The logic of the answer (not all respond, heard immunity, wears off etc etc) is not concepts they even grasp. All they say is "well it doesn't work so I'm not injecting my kid with the poison". They literally are obtuse when it comes to this argument.
10. You cant sue if your child is harmed by a vaccine. This is 100% true. People ABSOLUTLY get harmed. The risk is minimal. But yes, there Is risk. No question. Just like there is risk getting into a car, or taking a Tylenol. There is absolutely risk.
These are the main points I can come up with right now. And they all say the same things. If you look back on this thread Every person who is anti vax has said something along these lines for every one of their arguments. There is a guy (I wont say his name or website) that is Bat shizz crazy and spreads all of this ridiculousness.
I hope this helps YOU wrap your brain around it. Even with these arguments and the logic and science and FACT of the correct answers, these people wont budge. It defies logic.
They also think we are crazy for blindly following the CDC, those in charge and doctors. That's the main argument when you come back with fact. "OH, you believe the CDC??" "You believe your doctor who hasn't even read the insert". I can go on and on. But this is the main hurdle They don't trust most (if any?) medical reporting from the government or any officials........
but they believe Wakefield........
(ETA: I wont respond again. Its a thread that has been here for 6 years. We wont agree and the argument is not worth the time anymore).
Last edited by GailRNY; 02-02-2015 at 10:07 AM..
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