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#2 No we don't need teachers to work 240 days but we don't want to pay for 240 days when you only work about 160 days.
#3 Where you live is no concern of mine.
The voucher system may be an option but as in NYC teachers Unions would fight it because it would represent a threat to their monopoly.
Just curious is JDMBA's husband an English teacher?
(Don't worry, he doesn't teach English)
My husband is more hard core than I am as far as being in your face about this. Anyway, if you are not going to pay teachers a decent salary, you are going to get what you pay for. Let's say you think 50k is fair, I'm guessing, you need to give me a number, prorate that and you're looking at what, 35k?? I have no idea what you would want. Who would you possibly get to go into this profession for that money?? It does matter where they would live because if they can only afford to live in the same place that someone working in a supermarket could live, that is the same quality of worker you are going to attract (nothing against people who work in supermarkets, but I am talking education level).
I do ok with this. I am not crying povery. You also have to realize I am at the absolute maximum pay scale because of my education. I am making more than a typical teacher. If I were getting paid 40k a year, guess what? As much as I love doing what I am doing, I would probably just go back and try to do some kind of law where I didn't have to compromise my ethics, I suppose in house counsel? If teaching became really bad because of outside attitudes, working conditions, etc, I probably would go back to law. You have to make this a job that people want to do. Many people want to do it because it's a nice thing to do, but then you have to realize that these people are going to want to get married, have kids, live in a house, and if they can't afford to do that, then that might surpass the dream of teaching.
Excluding any "specialty" high schools, the schools that ranked higher than the 6 LI high schools, were their per pupil expenditures higher, about the same or lower than the per pupil expenditures for the 6 LI high schools?
And...the education quality will take a nose dive and everyone's housing prices would likewise go down. Many teachers are qualified to do other things in their respective fields and wouldn't take the jobs. You would be left with the lowest quality teachers available and the kids would be the ones getting hurt.
The higher performing schools would charge more money and the poor kids wouldn't be able to afford these schools and you will get what you pay for if in fact you attempted your proposed model. The higher performing schools would have to pay the teachers more and the tenets of capitalism would take over.
You can see capitalism at work when you compare NYC and LI. You get what you pay for. LI teachers are better than NYC teachers. Everyone wants to work on LI because they will get paid more than working for a NYC school. Thus, getting a teaching job on LI is very hard- you have to be good. And, if you are not good, they will think nothing of getting rid of you until they find someone who is deserving of tenure. I work with some incredible teachers, probably some of the best on LI, because my school pays more than many other districts and attracts these teachers. (I'm there because my family is from the area and I share similar values with my students- education/religion/etc).
(Not JDMBA's husband :O)
In terms of the "get what you pay for" theory, does that mean that the teachers who work at private and parochial schools (who are what I would consider undercompensated) all must really STINK? If so, why do parents pay thousands of dollars for each child annually over and above their property taxes (which provide "better" teachers in public schools) to attend said schools?
As for the merit system when it comes to getting hired on Long Island as a public school teacher ... everyone knows it has been a rigged game for DECADES. Yes, decades. Teachers have historically been hired based on WHO THEY KNOW not WHAT THEY KNOW. Maybe this is changing in the present day, but you can accept our scepticism considering the way things have historically been done, can't you?
I also think that many NYC teachers are not BAD TEACHERS but they simply don't know anyone in any LI school district and, having no connections, but wanting to teach, end up teaching in NYC. Perhaps they have to be BETTER teachers than most on LI when they are faced with a classroom of kids from a very rough neighborhood.
Excluding any "specialty" high schools, the schools that ranked higher than the 6 LI high schools, were their per pupil expenditures higher, about the same or lower than the per pupil expenditures for the 6 LI high schools?
I only looked at the first page, and what stood out are the schools Corbett, Basis Charter, and Eastside. I don't know why we shouldn't look at Charter schools since when run well, they all spend way less than our public schools, have higher percentage of minority students and yet have very successful results. 47% of Basis charter are minorities, and if you take a LI school with that many minorities, they would spend 20k+/student yet it would be ranked at the bottom of schools. Eastside is a public school with 42.6% classified as "economically disadvantaged" yet they rank higher than schools from our richest areas. The highly successful Harlem Charter school and parents' urging couldn't get the NY Charter school cap raised. It took a bait of $700 million from obama for teachers unions to agree to 260 more charter schools in our state. Teachers union and this resistance to reform in NY are only to protect a minority of the population at the expense of taxpayers and education.
And JDMBA, you mentioned PA as an example to compare to us. Maybe you should take a look at Northern Virginia where the cost of living is comparable, and may be even higher. By the way, they get less state aid than us so that's not a factor why their taxes are lower. If by that reason alone, they should have higher taxes. Also, 6 of their 13 school districts (46%) are on the list. We have 6 out of 126 (4.7%). I hope we have a few in the top since nassau is #2 and suffolk is #9 in the nation in terms of property tax burden. We also have the most number of school districts in one county.
You can defend all you want and in a way it's human nature since who doesn't want to make good money? No one would care except the people who are giving you the generous compensation/benefits and yearly raises are the very ones who are losing their jobs, losing their homes, or willingly taking pay cuts/freezes to keep their jobs. Maybe you should take a break from your 15 hour days grading tests, and be more aware of what's happening. We're in a recession with 10% unemployment rate, many have taken a pay freeze/cuts for years, our state has a huge deficit, the pension responsibilities just keep on rising exponentially, and we're lucky if property tax rises less than 5% each year. But none of this matters to you because you're still getting your guaranteed yearly raises.
the minute that we don't perform, there will be pressure on us to correct this, as there should be. We don't have "bad" teachers. You can't be a "bad" teacher here. It wouldn't be tolerated.There are expectations that are in place and it is our job to meet or exceed these very high expectations. We owe it to our students, we owe it to the parents, we owe it to the school, and we owe it to ourselves to do the best job possible.
Oh yes it is tolerated. And it is tolerated in all school districts because it is part of the union member culture.
Go ask twingles about her son's teacher in the Garden City school district ... the teacher who EVERYONE knows IS TOTALLY INCOMPETENT but is so protected by her union, tenure and length of service, she is virtually bulletproof (and she knows it).
Oh yes it is tolerated. And it is tolerated in all school districts because it is part of the union member culture.
Go ask twingles about her son's teacher in the Garden City school district ... the teacher who EVERYONE knows IS TOTALLY INCOMPETENT but is so protected by her union, tenure and length of service, she is virtually bulletproof (and she knows it).
If you are "bad" they keep a paper trail and get rid of the teacher. Tenure doesn't protect you from being incompetent. If people are complaining about the teacher, then they will start to observe the teacher and create the paper trail so they can take action.
And JDMBA, you mentioned PA as an example to compare to us. Maybe you should take a look at Northern Virginia where the cost of living is comparable, and may be even higher. By the way, they get less state aid than us so that's not a factor why their taxes are lower. If by that reason alone, they should have higher taxes. Also, 6 of their 13 school districts (46%) are on the list. We have 6 out of 126 (4.7%). I hope we have a few in the top since nassau is #2 and suffolk is #9 in the nation in terms of property tax burden. We also have the most number of school districts in one county.
We should go see what they are doing then and try to implement it here.
You can defend all you want and in a way it's human nature since who doesn't want to make good money? No one would care except the people who are giving you the generous compensation/benefits and yearly raises are the very ones who are losing their jobs, losing their homes, or willingly taking pay cuts/freezes to keep their jobs. Maybe you should take a break from your 15 hour days grading tests, and be more aware of what's happening. We're in a recession with 10% unemployment rate, many have taken a pay freeze/cuts for years, our state has a huge deficit, the pension responsibilities just keep on rising exponentially, and we're lucky if property tax rises less than 5% each year. But none of this matters to you because you're still getting your guaranteed yearly raises.
We didn't get any raises last year. I don't know what's happening this year. Trust me, I am lucky that I have a job. I almost lost mine but last minute got it back. I don't know if I'm going to have a job after next year. Many people I know have gotten accessed (laid off). Don't assume I think my job is secure. And don't assume I don't consider myself a very fortunate person.
My husband is more hard core than I am as far as being in your face about this. Anyway, if you are not going to pay teachers a decent salary, you are going to get what you pay for. Let's say you think 50k is fair, I'm guessing, you need to give me a number, prorate that and you're looking at what, 35k?? I have no idea what you would want. Who would you possibly get to go into this profession for that money?? It does matter where they would live because if they can only afford to live in the same place that someone working in a supermarket could live, that is the same quality of worker you are going to attract (nothing against people who work in supermarkets, but I am talking education level).
I do ok with this. I am not crying povery. You also have to realize I am at the absolute maximum pay scale because of my education. I am making more than a typical teacher. If I were getting paid 40k a year, guess what? As much as I love doing what I am doing, I would probably just go back and try to do some kind of law where I didn't have to compromise my ethics, I suppose in house counsel? If teaching became really bad because of outside attitudes, working conditions, etc, I probably would go back to law. You have to make this a job that people want to do. Many people want to do it because it's a nice thing to do, but then you have to realize that these people are going to want to get married, have kids, live in a house, and if they can't afford to do that, then that might surpass the dream of teaching.
Putting a number on teachers salaries is far from an exact science but any reasonable person could see that there is a severe inequity. There was a disparity before the economic down turn and in this economic climate it is even worse. Residents out of work, foreclosures and pay freezes for private residents and meanwhile teacher’s union contracts have not missed a beat for the most part. They have continued to receive roughly 7 % increases, pay a fraction of their health care and work 182 days a year. Its kind of like the old argument on pornography, I don’t know how to define it but I sure know when I see it.
I think we are at a point where there needs to be some reasonable by the teahers union (and others) before we loose more businesses on the Island.
If you are "bad" they keep a paper trail and get rid of the teacher. Tenure doesn't protect you from being incompetent. If people are complaining about the teacher, then they will start to observe the teacher and create the paper trail so they can take action.
Not so sure about that, especially if the teacher has a long tenure at the school and a pushy union.
Nothing is as egalitarian as you think it is in LI's school districts. You need to look beneath the surface and follow actions rather than words. There has historically been a general undercurrent of corruption and jobs being used as "favors" instead of given to the best candidate and, frankly, unions don't help.
Unions in general have been totally corrupt to the point most consorted with, and several were controlled by, organized crime (not saying this about teachers' unions, but to me it devalues unionization as a whole).
Just looked at updated info for my district (Herricks).
There are about 160 teachers making $100k or more, with top pay around $124k. The median teacher salary is just under $95k. The profile for a teacher around that median level appears to be about Step 10 and Masters + 40 in terms of accumulated education.
I'll post additional info later on after spending some more time looking at the data as well as the new contract that started with the 2009-2010 school year.
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