Worcester Woo Sox? (Boston, Lowell, Gill: new home, taxes, living)

[The_General]

Originally Posted by lrfox

Fall River/New Bedford are part of the PVD MSA, not the CSA. But anecdotally speaking as someone who mostly grew up in the Fall River/New Bedford area (Assonet), Pawsox games were a big part of life for us and the area as a whole. Aside from just straight up buying tickets, they're popular giveaways at schools, sports leagues, fundraisers, etc. all over that area. I would guess that the Fall River/New Bedford area makes up a decent contingent of the McCoy attendance based on my experience. I'm also almost certain that most of these folks won't be heading to Worcester for a game (Worcester is a long ways away in the eyes of FR/NB locals).

New Bedford is 36 miles to Pawtucket, Providence is 39 miles to Worcester. If people can make it to Pawtucket from New Bedford, people can make it to Worcester from Providence.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by The_General

New Bedford is 36 miles to Pawtucket, Providence is 39 miles to Worcester. If people can make it to Pawtucket from New Bedford, people can make it to Worcester from Providence.

It's not a question of can they, it's a question of will they?

Providence/Pawtucket is a destination for people from New Bedford because it's a larger city (the primary city of the metro area) and is the regional hub for healthcare, employment, shopping, and entertainment. While the distance between Providence and Worcester isn't significantly higher, Providence doesn't have the same kind of relationship with Worcester that New Bedford does with Providence. People from Providence don't head to Worcester for recreation at the same rate that people from New Bedford head to Providence for recreation/entertainment. The relationship is different - Providence and Worcester operate on separate planes. I don't doubt that some of the more passionate fans from PVD will head to Worcester for some games, but I think many of the more casual fans won't, simply because from a functional standpoint Worcester isn't really in Providence's orbit to that great of an extent. At least not in the same way that New Bedford is.

[ormari]

Originally Posted by The_General

New Bedford is 36 miles to Pawtucket, Providence is 39 miles to Worcester. If people can make it to Pawtucket from New Bedford, people can make it to Worcester from Providence.

lrfox is right. Will we Rhode Islanders leave Providence to go to Worcester to see the AAA team should they leave town? The answer is no, we will not. Rhode Island is a small state and everything is hyperlocal. We don't tend to want to drive across state, let alone all the way up to Worcester, paying money to an ownership group that is widely disliked.

[CaseyB]

Originally Posted by The_General

New Bedford is 36 miles to Pawtucket, Providence is 39 miles to Worcester. If people can make it to Pawtucket from New Bedford, people can make it to Worcester from Providence.

I know it's a stereotype, but people from Rhode Island don't like to drive very far. And a good number of them will be po'd at the sox for moving, anyway.

No doubt, there's been marketing studies done and if they think the greater Worcester area will have the same amount of support, they'll move.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by CaseyB

No doubt, there's been marketing studies done and if they think the greater Worcester area will have the same amount of support, they'll move.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If they get a larger public investment from Worcester they'll move even if it doesn't look like they'll get the same amount of support as they would with a new stadium in RI. Obviously Pawtucket is the safer bet because it's an established market (in a larger metro), but a big public investment mitigates most of the risks involved with moving. Especially the potential for less support.

[The_General]

There are other teams in Wilkes Barre and the Lehigh Valley that have fewer people than the Worcester area that have better attendance than the PawSox

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by The_General

There are other teams in Wilkes Barre and the Lehigh Valley that have fewer people than the Worcester area that have better attendance than the PawSox

Has anyone said that Worcester is too small for an AAA team? The argument has always been that PVD is quite a bit larger and that that's an advantage. Never that a smaller area than PVD is incapable of successfully supporting a team.

That being said - SWB and Lehigh Valley are not good comparisons to Worcester for a few reasons:

1) Both SWB and and Lehigh, though smaller in population, are more independent "metro areas." Worcester is a satellite city of Boston (technically part of metro Boston) and is close to other urban hubs like Providence, all of which draw people away from Worcester for work, entertainment, healthcare, etc. Size isn't everything (Portland, ME is smaller than Framingham, MA - does that mean Framingham can support everything Portland can?)

2) Fenway is less than an hour from Worcester (well under from parts of the Worcester area). SWB and Lehigh are an hour and a half (or futher - 2.5+ hours in the case of SWB) from the nearest MLB stadiums. With Fenway so close and the Sox such a draw, the two will compete with each other. Of course families looking for a cheap/easy outing will prefer Worcester, but you'll lose fans who can easily get to Fenway for a game. SWB and Lehigh don't have to deal with that. Certainly not to the same extent.

3) Worcester is spread out. A lot. The "metro area" that people are referring to is simply a combination of Worcester County, MA and Windham County, CT. Lehigh Valley may have about 100,000 fewer people, but it is denser by over 100 people per square mile. It's more concentrated. A huge chunk of metro Worcester's population either lives close enough to Providence or Boston where they go there for entertainment over Worcester, or they live far enough outside of Worcester's orbit that they won't go there anyway. Simply put, Worcester isn't the "hub" that many other, smaller cities are (look at Portland, ME again for another example of a much smaller city that's a bigger regional hub) because it's simultaneously so spread out and so close to other, more important cities.

[The_General]

Originally Posted by lrfox

Has anyone said that Worcester is too small for an AAA team? The argument has always been that PVD is quite a bit larger and that that's an advantage. Never that a smaller area than PVD is incapable of successfully supporting a team.

That being said - SWB and Lehigh Valley are not good comparisons to Worcester for a few reasons:

1) Both SWB and and Lehigh, though smaller in population, are more independent "metro areas." Worcester is a satellite city of Boston (technically part of metro Boston) and is close to other urban hubs like Providence, all of which draw people away from Worcester for work, entertainment, healthcare, etc. Size isn't everything (Portland, ME is smaller than Framingham, MA - does that mean Framingham can support everything Portland can?)

2) Fenway is less than an hour from Worcester (well under from parts of the Worcester area). SWB and Lehigh are an hour and a half (or futher - 2.5+ hours in the case of SWB) from the nearest MLB stadiums. With Fenway so close and the Sox such a draw, the two will compete with each other. Of course families looking for a cheap/easy outing will prefer Worcester, but you'll lose fans who can easily get to Fenway for a game. SWB and Lehigh don't have to deal with that. Certainly not to the same extent.

3) Worcester is spread out. A lot. The "metro area" that people are referring to is simply a combination of Worcester County, MA and Windham County, CT. Lehigh Valley may have about 100,000 fewer people, but it is denser by over 100 people per square mile. It's more concentrated. A huge chunk of metro Worcester's population either lives close enough to Providence or Boston where they go there for entertainment over Worcester, or they live far enough outside of Worcester's orbit that they won't go there anyway. Simply put, Worcester isn't the "hub" that many other, smaller cities are (look at Portland, ME again for another example of a much smaller city that's a bigger regional hub) because it's simultaneously so spread out and so close to other, more important cities.

You can say the same thing about Providence. I spent 4 years at UMass Dartmouth and New Bedford was "the city" Most Friday nights were spent in New Bedford. As pointed out in this thread Worcester doesn't have any cities the size of New Bedford, Fall River or Taunton near it fighting for entertainment dollars.

[mdovell]

Not to get off topic on this but in terms of development within the region the mass gaming commission has said they'll look at region C again in September. If they reopen the bidding could there be something in the next five or so years? Brockton had a pretty weak one but New bedford had one that was pretty interesting. The tribe has no real grounds now for opening one. Waterfront sells and frankly a casino doesn't close so that means incentives to stay open longer.

I don't see RI fans going to Worcester. I don't think I'll see NB and fall river fans going to Worcester either. I think this might be more about getting as much growth/development/investment before the next recession hits.

[MMS02760]

Originally Posted by mdovell

Not to get off topic on this but in terms of development within the region the mass gaming commission has said they'll look at region C again in September. If they reopen the bidding could there be something in the next five or so years? Brockton had a pretty weak one but New bedford had one that was pretty interesting. The tribe has no real grounds now for opening one. Waterfront sells and frankly a casino doesn't close so that means incentives to stay open longer.

The casino market is maxing out. I don't know if you will see anything in SE MA in the next few years. A new casino with table games and a hotel in Tiverton-RI right along Rte 24 on the FR-MA line is set to open sometime in September or October. It will be run by Twin River (as in Lincoln-RI) and will replace the Newport Grand slots hall. With this casino and the existing Plainridge along with the Everett casino opening the next summer, the area may be over-saturated. This will make it tougher for any new casino project to get financing, be it Native-American or commercial.


The best area for a MA casino in my view would be somewhere near the NH border as there are no casinos in that state. If it had been up to me several years ago, I would have situated a casino somewhere between Fitchburg and Lowell rather than Plainville. Plainridge is just too close to the RI and CT casinos in my opinion and is at a competitive disadvantage not having tables games and hotel lodging as they all will soon do.