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Where does Chelsea fit in this conversation? Lot of talk about Lawrence, but how does Lawrence compare to Chelsea?
People I know with experience on the streets say Chelsea is a much gloomier place to be. It's the city under the bridge - 35,000 people crammed into 2.5 square miles. With a history of neglect, conflagrations, pollution, crime, and mental illness, Chelsea is one of the toughest places in the north east to live or work.
Still, Lawrence is last in Massachusetts cities and towns by per capita income (351 out of 351). It's not even close how far down the list Lawrence is. Lawrence residents earn less than half of the state average. When comparing Lowell or Lynn with Lawrence for example, neither is as economically depraved as Lawrence. Strangely, Lawrence hasn't completely lost it's shoe industry, with New Balance operating there. Top employers in Chelsea are the city, the state, Kayem hot dogs, and signiture bread (the shaw's brand).
Chelsea (347 out of 351) residents earn more than Lawrence but less than Lynn, while experiencing higher cost of living surrounded by some of the wealthiest communities in the United States. However, being so close to Boston provides limitless opportunity for those who can claw their way out.
My initial thoughts are that Chelsea and Lynn are most likely to become gentrified and give their residents a free commuter rail ride to Lawrence and Lowell. Covid likely reverses this trend, with more upper middle class families fleeing to the countryside. Perhaps denser development in Chelsea to open space for Lawrence residents to move closer to the city, which they'd rather do, and free up more of nothern ma to faux quaint New England town?
Central to this thread however, is the definition of a 'hood'. I won't get into that too much, but I suppose Chelsea is much more diverse. I'm not sure about the demographics on the streets. Not every hood is as bad as another. Some people refer to their hood positively, hoping to turn things around in their hood. For Chelsea and Lawrence, the problems run much deeper than being a hood.
Chelsea has gentrified some but it’s problems are so deep rooted, and racial, and the available land is so sparse and the housing stock is so poor, it’s limited. It’s just as bad as Lawrence form a hood culture perspective but with a little more urbane pinache. Chelsea will bet better than Lawrence ultimately but always retain a significant hood culture. The Central American culture is a but less in your face than the DR/PR culture.
The problem I see with Lawrence is that it's so close to the New Hampshire border that many people end up going there to buy things and bypassing the sales taxes. In many cases retail low-level jobs end up paying more in sales taxes so they'll just jump over thinking they're saving that much money. For larger items they do but in Massachusetts we largely exempt clothing and food and we also have a sales tax free weekend usually in August.
development has to be something that's more than just piecemeal. For example of law it can be strongly argue that UMass Lowell help Turn Around from the mid-1990s onward. If you look at Brockton they actually don't like the state because every now and then those throw a bone like a new court house, an unemployment office or a garage thinking that somehow that's development.
There's only so much stuff of a particular category that can be applied. Let me explain. When MGM Springfield opened up I've heard some critiques about the musical acts and entertainment that were drawn in. It's very hard to satisfy this for everybody. Someone tried arguing with me about monster truck shows and there already was one that year. I'm all for things being local but some acts do have to have a minimum amount of seats to validate a venue. when I was a kid I used to have these ideas about going to trade shows but then after attending a number of them I quickly saw a lot of them just fading with time. The CES used to be huge and then you had the III spinoff and now from that companies would just rather have a big press conference and just release their information rather than to have a back-and-forth trying to get attention of people at a trade show.
I have no idea what could turn Lawrence around. I can't think of that many things specifically that would bring people there on a sustainable manner that would Increase jobs and Elevate poor people up to the middle class.
The problem I see with Lawrence is that it's so close to the New Hampshire border that many people end up going there to buy things and bypassing the sales taxes. In many cases retail low-level jobs end up paying more in sales taxes so they'll just jump over thinking they're saving that much money. For larger items they do but in Massachusetts we largely exempt clothing and food and we also have a sales tax free weekend usually in August.
development has to be something that's more than just piecemeal. For example of law it can be strongly argue that UMass Lowell help Turn Around from the mid-1990s onward. If you look at Brockton they actually don't like the state because every now and then those throw a bone like a new court house, an unemployment office or a garage thinking that somehow that's development.
There's only so much stuff of a particular category that can be applied. Let me explain. When MGM Springfield opened up I've heard some critiques about the musical acts and entertainment that were drawn in. It's very hard to satisfy this for everybody. Someone tried arguing with me about monster truck shows and there already was one that year. I'm all for things being local but some acts do have to have a minimum amount of seats to validate a venue. when I was a kid I used to have these ideas about going to trade shows but then after attending a number of them I quickly saw a lot of them just fading with time. The CES used to be huge and then you had the III spinoff and now from that companies would just rather have a big press conference and just release their information rather than to have a back-and-forth trying to get attention of people at a trade show.
I have no idea what could turn Lawrence around. I can't think of that many things specifically that would bring people there on a sustainable manner that would Increase jobs and Elevate poor people up to the middle class.
One thing that could help is a setup similar to what Hartford and Springfield share. Hasn't benefited Springfield a ton but nonetheless, those two cities share a fate of sorts. If Hartford was to boom or Springfield boomed; the other would benefit.
Manchester is a little more than half an hour away. Manchester-Lawrence economic development could be good, power in numbers.
Some sort of economic stimulator would be required but who knows what that could be.
One thing that could help is a setup similar to what Hartford and Springfield share. Hasn't benefited Springfield a ton but nonetheless, those two cities share a fate of sorts. If Hartford was to boom or Springfield boomed; the other would benefit.
Manchester is a little more than half an hour away. Manchester-Lawrence economic development could be good, power in numbers.
Some sort of economic stimulator would be required but who knows what that could be.
Nashua and Lowell are far more tied to Manchester than Lawrence is. They are already far healthier and would be in position to benefit long before Lawrence gets anything.
Nashua and Lowell are far more tied to Manchester than Lawrence is. They are already far healthier and would be in position to benefit long before Lawrence gets anything.
I don't know why but even though Lawrence does feel grittier, I still kind of feel that it has a better downtown than Lowell. Sure Lowell has Middlesex Community College and the National Historic Park but its downtown is boring and lifeless. There are fewer retail shops than Lawrence and less character not to mention a lot more homeless wandering about. Lawrence's downtown is laid out on a grid, it has nicer looking buildings, more retail, and a colorful Caribbean vibe to it. I feel more like I'm in a city when in Downtown Lawrence than in Downtown Lowell. Lawrence is also closer to I-93 than Lowell so its location is more convenient. It's a tossup to say which is the worse "hood", I guess it depends on specific metrics.
One thing that could help is a setup similar to what Hartford and Springfield share. Hasn't benefited Springfield a ton but nonetheless, those two cities share a fate of sorts. If Hartford was to boom or Springfield boomed; the other would benefit.
Manchester is a little more than half an hour away. Manchester-Lawrence economic development could be good, power in numbers.
Some sort of economic stimulator would be required but who knows what that could be.
Not really. The Hartford suburbs have a couple hundred thousand white collar professionals in a metro of about 1.3 million. Springfield looks nothing like that. Once you get beyond health care jobs, there isn’t much. There’s pretty much zero economic linkage. The airport. A few people riding commuter rail.
Not really. The Hartford suburbs have a couple hundred thousand white collar professionals in a metro of about 1.3 million. Springfield looks nothing like that. Once you get beyond health care jobs, there isn’t much. There’s pretty much zero economic linkage. The airport. A few people riding commuter rail.
There's linkage-imo Hampden County should be in the Hartford MSA. At my college in Hartford, we had professors who lived in Springfield or Enifled or Agawam. Enfield and Suffield while in CT are considered Springfield suburbs by everyone including various academic studies/surveys as well as "Niche". We had food service staff who lived in Springfield and even in Maryland, I met a woman moving to Manchester CT but was going to be employed at MGM Springfield.
I don't know why but even though Lawrence does feel grittier, I still kind of feel that it has a better downtown than Lowell. Sure Lowell has Middlesex Community College and the National Historic Park but its downtown is boring and lifeless. There are fewer retail shops than Lawrence and less character not to mention a lot more homeless wandering about. Lawrence's downtown is laid out on a grid, it has nicer looking buildings, more retail, and a colorful Caribbean vibe to it. I feel more like I'm in a city when in Downtown Lawrence than in Downtown Lowell. Lawrence is also closer to I-93 than Lowell so its location is more convenient. It's a tossup to say which is the worse "hood", I guess it depends on specific metrics.
Agree on the colorful Caribbean vibe. Lawrence has seeds of gentrified flair. Essex Street is pretty cool. El Taller Cafe is a great spot. Obviously a ton of good authentic Latin food. I believe there’s a new brewery in one of the mills.
I have a buddy who just got into an investment property in South Lawrence, hes moving in at least for a little while. I’ll be curious how that experience goes for him.
As for elevating people, I think it will take the government not persecuting our immigrants and accepting them as hard working citizens. How many would pay taxes if they could avoid living in the shadow economy without fear of deportation? Let’s see what happens Tuesday.
I don't know why but even though Lawrence does feel grittier, I still kind of feel that it has a better downtown than Lowell. Sure Lowell has Middlesex Community College and the National Historic Park but its downtown is boring and lifeless. There are fewer retail shops than Lawrence and less character not to mention a lot more homeless wandering about. Lawrence's downtown is laid out on a grid, it has nicer looking buildings, more retail, and a colorful Caribbean vibe to it. I feel more like I'm in a city when in Downtown Lawrence than in Downtown Lowell. Lawrence is also closer to I-93 than Lowell so its location is more convenient. It's a tossup to say which is the worse "hood", I guess it depends on specific metrics.
Interesting.
But day or night, do you feel safer in most or all parts of downtown Lowell or downtown Lawrence, whether walking, driving or parking a car?
But day or night, do you feel safer in most or all parts of downtown Lowell or downtown Lawrence, whether walking, driving or parking a car?
I have never walked in Downtown Lawrence after dark so I cannot tell but during the day I feel just fine and I'm not Hispanic. Back in 1995, I'd have shuddered to walk anywhere in Lawrence but not now. I've ridden the MVRTA buses in and out of Buckley Transportation Center a few times to get to Andover or Methuen, walked the Common, visited the library (Lawrence Public Library is SO much better than Pollard Memorial Library in Lowell), dined at a few restaurants, and visited their own tiny National Park Visitor Center which is dwarfed by Lowell's but still is a good pit stop if you're in the area. I'd be willing to pop into Lawrence again.
I am more familiar with Lowell having lived and worked there in the recent past. During the day, I walked everywhere with no problem. Heck even when the Lowell High School kids are let out in the afternoon, they're even more polite than some of the absolutely intimidating yobos down here in Boston , the kind that were my classmates and my students in the past. Certain streets in Downtown Lowell such as Market Street, Palmer Street, and Merrimack Street are a lot more comfortable to walk on, even at night but as I said, Downtown Lowell is very dead after hours. Other streets like Appleton Street, Middlesex Street, and Green Street I would not recommend walking at night. A lot of homeless congregate in that part of Downtown and there is definitely criminal activity down there by the evidence of all those syringes on the ground and some parts are not well lit at all. I once nearly witnessed a catfight between two angry women right in the middle of Green Street and the sun hadn't even set yet. Luckily their respective boyfriends pulled them aside before they could lay their hands on each other. Actually that part of Lowell's Downtown south of the canal and towards South Common and the Back Central neighborhood really remind me of the Mission Hill neighborhood I grew up in back in the day. Trash strewn everywhere, wild weeds, cracked pavements, broken beer bottles, boarded up windows, condoms and syringes are what you'll find there. No, it is not a pleasant part of the city to walk through.
Now that I've shared my experiences, which city do you feel safer in?
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, the kind that were my classmates and my students in the past. Certain streets in Downtown Lowell such as Market Street, Palmer Street, and Merrimack Street are a lot more comfortable to walk on, even at night but as I said, Downtown Lowell is very dead after hours. Other streets like Appleton Street, Middlesex Street, and Green Street I would not recommend walking at night. A lot of homeless congregate in that part of Downtown and there is definitely criminal activity down there by the evidence of all those syringes on the ground and some parts are not well lit at all. I once nearly witnessed a catfight between two angry women right in the middle of Green Street and the sun hadn't even set yet. Luckily their respective boyfriends pulled them aside before they could lay their hands on each other. Actually that part of Lowell's Downtown south of the canal and towards South Common and the Back Central neighborhood really remind me of the Mission Hill neighborhood I grew up in back in the day. Trash strewn everywhere, wild weeds, cracked pavements, broken beer bottles, boarded up windows, condoms and syringes are what you'll find there. No, it is not a pleasant part of the city to walk through. 
