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I would have told him you drive and I dial 911, thats it, I wouldn't play.
Maybe when hes locked up long enough, he'll dry out and think about sobriety.
You're absolutely right. I believe the OP used to be in the mental health field but can't recall in what capacity ...
I was a case manager for troubled youths. That in and of itself will drive someone crazy - not the kids, rather the caseload. I found the parents were the culprits far too often in that world, but I digress.
You already concurred that maybe you should change your social scene in order to avoid all this drama. Isn't now a good time to start?
Yes, it is and I won't call him to check in on him and see how he is doing.
But this makes me think of the bigger picture. I almost wish that there were a way to restrict the sale of alcohol to anyone who has ever had a DUI. Make some sort of law where they note it on one's drivers license and this has to be scanned in order to purchase alcohol. Of course, I am only dreaming here. Bottom line is I have to just walk away from this.
Yes, it is and I won't call him to check in on him and see how he is doing.
But this makes me think of the bigger picture. I almost wish that there were a way to restrict the sale of alcohol to anyone who has ever had a DUI. Make some sort of law where they note it on one's drivers license and this has to be scanned in order to purchase alcohol. Of course, I am only dreaming here. Bottom line is I have to just walk away from this.
And walk away from the former crackheads, too, unless you're a masochist.
In the way that you suggest, yes there is always something someone can do but only as long as someone gives up the idea they can rescue others. Well- intentioned people can believe they have the power to make someone stop drinking or abusing when they have no power at all to do this.
There are people who can help but a lot of people who may want to help will only end up becoming part of the problem. Very often the alcoholic/addict has plenty of people around who care, who very much want to help, plenty of people will make an effort to save him or her. There are those people who try to help by scolding, or try to help by hiding the bottles, or try to defend and comfort even help the alcoholic deny there is a problem, or lend money so his problems go away. Some people might try to help by trying to make the alcoholic see the errors of his way, get him to feel guilt, others will try a motherly approach instead, help him with the pity.
Yes you're right there are is always something someone can do but I don't think everyone has it in them to do the right thing. The AA approach isn't for everyone but I believe for the enabler it has some good tips. One is the serenity part, to know what one can change and what one cannot change. Another is to realize that you cannot control the addict so that means forget using mind games on them, forget trying to manipulate them, forget trying to apologize for them, pity them, explaining to them and all those traps people who care fall into.
Yes there is that about the unconditional love - but that is after one learns that is all one can really offer and after one has stopped allowing oneself to be conned. In other words - in order to help you have to first end all the bull**** in yourself. Most people are powerless when up against their own bull**** and so cannot rescue someone else.
...This was very well said: "There are people who can help but a lot of people who may want to help will only end up becoming part of the problem."
I believe that the worst thing that someone can do is nothing. Even these people who so desperately want to help, there are things that they can do without inserting themselves into the problem.. but they have to realize that once they do put themselves into the situation directly, then they have a direct influence on that person with the problem, either good or bad.
Again, you make a lot of good points here.. I hope that there's a lot of people reading all of this and getting something out of it. Thing is, even if someone can't directly help another person, there is always someone who can. It may take a few hours of research and a couple thousand phone calls, but it's worth it - especially if one of those phone calls helps that person stop drinking or using..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68
B.S. why, because someone disagreed with you? Sorry, but I've known many an alcoholic/drug addict and some are beyond hope. Ultimately, the addict has to WANT to get straight, otherwise all the intervention in the world isn't going to change a thing. There is no "one size fits all" approach or fix, intervention doesn't work on everyone. To say that a person just doesn't care enough to help someone when they clearly can't is B.S. If someone doesn't want to be helped, then there is nothing you can do. Perhaps you can come up with some short term solution, but ultimately the addict has to want to be and stay clean. Some families have exhausted all their energy, resources, and options before finally having to come to terms with the addicted member's unwillingness to get sober, and it was heart wrenching for those families who finally had to let go, so don't tell me that they didn't care enough!
Whoa... don't get your panties in a twist there boss..
The one and only thing that I disagreed with Malamute on was that people can't do anything about a problem. With everything else, I agreed with 100 percent!
Alright, listen. I was one of those people that you talk about. I was the one who didn't want to be helped. I was the one who was killing myself because of my selfishness. And yes, there were a ton of people that tried to help.. BUT, One person finally did get through to me. ONE PERSON. So sure, say that nobody can do anything.. but eventually that wall will break down - and when it does, if everyone's given up, then that wall is going to crumble on top of that person. But, even if there's just one single person there trying to offer a helping hand, that one person can drag another out from under that wall.
If it wasn't for that one person, I wouldn't be here to type this today.
I can post a list of all the people that I've known that's had drinking problems. I have had friends die because of drinking, because of drug abuse. I've also had friends LIVE because someone took the time to help them. Ever since I got out of the hospital and fully recovered, I have spent my life helping these kinds of people.
I know that there isn't any one thing that can be done... there never is. But, there are things that can be relayed to someone who doesn't know what to do. These are standard things.. if you look even at the AA website, they have these same things listed.
Yes, I know that intervention doesn't work on everyone. Everyone is different, everyone has different "triggers", different scenarios. But, there are a few simple things that one can do to help out an alcoholic, or a drug user.. Beyond that, it takes a lot of research, a lot of time, and a lot of dedication to that person.
You're absolutely right, the addict has to have the want to get help. Personally, I have known very few addicts that don't want that help. They may put on a great facade and all of that, but once you start breaking down walls, you find someone who's just begging to get out of their current situation. Again though, sometimes it's almost damn near impossible to get past those walls.. That's why I say to involve as many people as you can, and as consistently as you can. The more people helping out an addict, the more likely they are going to get help.
I never said anything is short term. If you go back and read my post, I said that I struggle with it CONSTANTLY. Not just once a month, or once a year, but constantly. I've learned enough to manage it, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to watch myself all the time. What I was relaying was a point in which to begin. Every time you help someone, or even ask another person to help someone, you have to have a starting point. A lot of people don't even know where that point is. A lot of people just ignore the problem, or make excuses for the problem. That's not helping.
When I say that someone doesn't care enough - I'm talking about those kinds of people; those people who see there's a problem, but ignore it because they don't know what to do about it. Or try once, and then quickly give up. For those who constantly try to help but don't get anywhere, hell, I know they care. Those people haven't given up, they've just taken a step back. Again, and again, I say: If you can't help yourself, how can you help another person? You can't. It's impossible. You'll only bring yourself down in the process. But, most of these families that step back are doing so so that they can regroup and try again later.. Even if they don't get anywhere, they care.
Look, I have a hell of a lot of respect for both you and for Malamute.. You two have always, always given excellent advice, and have always been good people. This is something that I feel strongly about though: There is ALWAYS something that someone can do. Even if it's something as small as picking up a phone and calling someone for help - it's still doing something.
Either way, I hope that this guy gets the help he needs. After going for so long and doing so good, just to end up back where he started.. I don't even know the dude, but I feel for him.. and all of the people that he's affected.
I've gone back and forth on how to respond to this thread because the things I want to say would take up an entire page And it's not an easy thing for me to write about. So I will try to make it as short as possible, while hopefully still making my points.
I have had friends and family members with both alcohol and drug addictions. Most managed to overcome it while some have yet to realize the path they are on. Different strategies work for different people. I would not say that AA or NA is the be all, end all nor would I discount their effectiveness. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
Anyway, one person I knew drank from sun up to sun down every day. It affected his family life, his job and his health. Stubborn as hell and nobody could convince him that he was not doing himself any good. It wasn't until he was in a car accident and almost died that he woke up and realized that he had to change. He attended the court-required therapy sessions and hasn't gone back since. He does not attend AA. He has not touched a drop of alcohol in almost 30 years.
Another person was very heavily into both drugs and drinking. She stopped doing both over 20 years ago but to this day regularly attends NA meetings...because she needs the encouragement and stability of people who can truly understand what she has been through. This works well for her. It took giving birth to her first child for her to realize this is not a path she wanted to be on.
Another did a lot of drugs and a fair amount of drinking while still under the age of 18. He was forced by his parents to go into a 30-day rehab facility where he did encounter a couple of set backs. Once out, he cleaned up his act, attended some family therapy and hit NA meetings for a short time. He no longer attends the meetings but hasn't used since. He made the decision on his own to make the change. He completely changed his life around.
And another is a very heavy drinker. What I would term a "responsible" drinker (if there is such a thing). She will crack a beer as soon as she gets home from work and drink one after another until she goes to bed. This has been going on for decades. Surprisingly, it has never affected her job. She is fiscally responsible. A very good person. She did have a couple of drunk drivings many years ago but after the second one decided that it wasn't worth it. So when she drinks, she does not drive. Through many years of intervening at some level or another, she refuses to acknowledge that she has a problem.
And the last...he drank his life away. Literally. He died at the age of 54 because nearly every major organ in his body shut down due to the drinking. He never thought he had a problem and would get angry when people tried to help. His drinking not only cost him his life, but also three marriages, jobs, good relationships with his children and a whole lot of money.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are different reasons that people find to stop drinking or using. Sometimes it's as simple as making a committment to themselves, sometimes it takes a significant event (like an accident or pregnancy) to want to stop. And some just keep right on going until they don't have a choice anymore.
I firmly believe, though, that nobody can help another person unless they want to do so themselves. Some may only require gentle nudging while some might need you to scream in their face until they get it. And some...you just aren't going to help at all if they don't want it.
It hurts to watch someone going through an addiction but I also know from experience that it's worth a try. It may leave you frustrated and angry but don't ever give up on them. Even if you've exhausted all efforts and the only thing left to do is HOPE.
I've gone back and forth on how to respond to this thread because the things I want to say would take up an entire page And it's not an easy thing for me to write about. So I will try to make it as short as possible, while hopefully still making my points.
Damn good post. I tried to rep you on this, but there isn't enough rep points available to even give you a tiny bit of credit for this.. Thank you for sharing - I don't even know how to express what I think of this post..
I've gone back and forth on how to respond to this thread because the things I want to say would take up an entire page And it's not an easy thing for me to write about. So I will try to make it as short as possible, while hopefully still making my points.
I have had friends and family members with both alcohol and drug addictions. Most managed to overcome it while some have yet to realize the path they are on. Different strategies work for different people. I would not say that AA or NA is the be all, end all nor would I discount their effectiveness. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
Anyway, one person I knew drank from sun up to sun down every day. It affected his family life, his job and his health. Stubborn as hell and nobody could convince him that he was not doing himself any good. It wasn't until he was in a car accident and almost died that he woke up and realized that he had to change. He attended the court-required therapy sessions and hasn't gone back since. He does not attend AA. He has not touched a drop of alcohol in almost 30 years.
Another person was very heavily into both drugs and drinking. She stopped doing both over 20 years ago but to this day regularly attends NA meetings...because she needs the encouragement and stability of people who can truly understand what she has been through. This works well for her. It took giving birth to her first child for her to realize this is not a path she wanted to be on.
Another did a lot of drugs and a fair amount of drinking while still under the age of 18. He was forced by his parents to go into a 30-day rehab facility where he did encounter a couple of set backs. Once out, he cleaned up his act, attended some family therapy and hit NA meetings for a short time. He no longer attends the meetings but hasn't used since. He made the decision on his own to make the change. He completely changed his life around.
And another is a very heavy drinker. What I would term a "responsible" drinker (if there is such a thing). She will crack a beer as soon as she gets home from work and drink one after another until she goes to bed. This has been going on for decades. Surprisingly, it has never affected her job. She is fiscally responsible. A very good person. She did have a couple of drunk drivings many years ago but after the second one decided that it wasn't worth it. So when she drinks, she does not drive. Through many years of intervening at some level or another, she refuses to acknowledge that she has a problem.
And the last...he drank his life away. Literally. He died at the age of 54 because nearly every major organ in his body shut down due to the drinking. He never thought he had a problem and would get angry when people tried to help. His drinking not only cost him his life, but also three marriages, jobs, good relationships with his children and a whole lot of money.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are different reasons that people find to stop drinking or using. Sometimes it's as simple as making a committment to themselves, sometimes it takes a significant event (like an accident or pregnancy) to want to stop. And some just keep right on going until they don't have a choice anymore.
I firmly believe, though, that nobody can help another person unless they want to do so themselves. Some may only require gentle nudging while some might need you to scream in their face until they get it. And some...you just aren't going to help at all if they don't want it.
It hurts to watch someone going through an addiction but I also know from experience that it's worth a try. It may leave you frustrated and angry but don't ever give up on them. Even if you've exhausted all efforts and the only thing left to do is HOPE.
I can only begin to imagine what prompted you to post what you did as I've done the same myself. It takes a lot of courage to go onto an open forum and spill the guts.
The main reason that some of us take the time to respond is because we care. Cheers!
...This was very well said: "There are people who can help but a lot of people who may want to help will only end up becoming part of the problem."
I believe that the worst thing that someone can do is nothing. Even these people who so desperately want to help, there are things that they can do without inserting themselves into the problem.. but they have to realize that once they do put themselves into the situation directly, then they have a direct influence on that person with the problem, either good or bad.
Again, you make a lot of good points here.. I hope that there's a lot of people reading all of this and getting something out of it. Thing is, even if someone can't directly help another person, there is always someone who can. It may take a few hours of research and a couple thousand phone calls, but it's worth it - especially if one of those phone calls helps that person stop drinking or using..
Whoa... don't get your panties in a twist there boss..
The one and only thing that I disagreed with Malamute on was that people can't do anything about a problem. With everything else, I agreed with 100 percent!
Alright, listen. I was one of those people that you talk about. I was the one who didn't want to be helped. I was the one who was killing myself because of my selfishness. And yes, there were a ton of people that tried to help.. BUT, One person finally did get through to me. ONE PERSON. So sure, say that nobody can do anything.. but eventually that wall will break down - and when it does, if everyone's given up, then that wall is going to crumble on top of that person. But, even if there's just one single person there trying to offer a helping hand, that one person can drag another out from under that wall.
If it wasn't for that one person, I wouldn't be here to type this today.
I can post a list of all the people that I've known that's had drinking problems. I have had friends die because of drinking, because of drug abuse. I've also had friends LIVE because someone took the time to help them. Ever since I got out of the hospital and fully recovered, I have spent my life helping these kinds of people.
I know that there isn't any one thing that can be done... there never is. But, there are things that can be relayed to someone who doesn't know what to do. These are standard things.. if you look even at the AA website, they have these same things listed.
Yes, I know that intervention doesn't work on everyone. Everyone is different, everyone has different "triggers", different scenarios. But, there are a few simple things that one can do to help out an alcoholic, or a drug user.. Beyond that, it takes a lot of research, a lot of time, and a lot of dedication to that person.
You're absolutely right, the addict has to have the want to get help. Personally, I have known very few addicts that don't want that help. They may put on a great facade and all of that, but once you start breaking down walls, you find someone who's just begging to get out of their current situation. Again though, sometimes it's almost damn near impossible to get past those walls.. That's why I say to involve as many people as you can, and as consistently as you can. The more people helping out an addict, the more likely they are going to get help.
I never said anything is short term. If you go back and read my post, I said that I struggle with it CONSTANTLY. Not just once a month, or once a year, but constantly. I've learned enough to manage it, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to watch myself all the time. What I was relaying was a point in which to begin. Every time you help someone, or even ask another person to help someone, you have to have a starting point. A lot of people don't even know where that point is. A lot of people just ignore the problem, or make excuses for the problem. That's not helping.
When I say that someone doesn't care enough - I'm talking about those kinds of people; those people who see there's a problem, but ignore it because they don't know what to do about it. Or try once, and then quickly give up. For those who constantly try to help but don't get anywhere, hell, I know they care. Those people haven't given up, they've just taken a step back. Again, and again, I say: If you can't help yourself, how can you help another person? You can't. It's impossible. You'll only bring yourself down in the process. But, most of these families that step back are doing so so that they can regroup and try again later.. Even if they don't get anywhere, they care.
Look, I have a hell of a lot of respect for both you and for Malamute.. You two have always, always given excellent advice, and have always been good people. This is something that I feel strongly about though: There is ALWAYS something that someone can do. Even if it's something as small as picking up a phone and calling someone for help - it's still doing something.
Either way, I hope that this guy gets the help he needs. After going for so long and doing so good, just to end up back where he started.. I don't even know the dude, but I feel for him.. and all of the people that he's affected.
You spoke in absolute terms when you stated that there is ALWAYS something that someone can do to help a person get clean. Sure there is always something you can do, but that doesn't mean it will be effective. It seems you are still locked into the idea that there is hope for everyone and that all they need is the right person to come along to reach them. I'll have to hold my ground on this one because I've seen the ones who have exhausted the kindness, love, patience, and generosity of those around them and just didn't want the help, or manipulated family members into believing they wanted help when they were still sneaking off to get drunk or high. There were some who wanted help, got help, and relapsed, and went into a permanent downward spiral. Parents, siblings, spouses, medical professionals, social workers and anyone in between can tell you stories about the ones they've tried to help but just couldn't reach. Not everyone is reachable.
You were fortunate enough to have that one person who could push the magic button and help you get back on track, not everyone has formed that sort of relationship with people in their lives. Not everyone can be reached. You can give it the old college try, but at some point a person has to take personal responsibilities for their actions and choices in life. You can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.
To address the OP's original question...the selfishness and the sickness go hand in hand, they feed off one another and it's the addict and his loved ones who get eaten up in the process.
You spoke in absolute terms when you stated that there is ALWAYS something that someone can do to help a person get clean. Sure there is always something you can do, but that doesn't mean it will be effective. It seems you are still locked into the idea that there is hope for everyone and that all they need is the right person to come along to reach them.
I get what you're saying man, I just happen to disagree. Not with everything, mind you, but with some things. So far, personally, I've never encountered a situation where there was an addict and I couldn't help in some way. Maybe I will some day, but until then, I'll keep strong with my conviction that there's always something that can be done.
And yes, I know, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I do believe that there is hope for everyone.. but that's just me.
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And it's not an easy thing for me to write about. So I will try to make it as short as possible, while hopefully still making my points.
