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Personally, I don't feel less safe in Mexico than I do north of the border.
You can't just look at the homicide statistics IMHO - the overwhelming majority of the murders/violent crimes committed in Mexico are narco-targeted/related. Weed those numbers out and then look at the remaining statistics for those where tourists in Mexico were victims of violent crime, be it random or targeted. All you have to do is search the news archives to see how many tourists have been killed in Mexico and then divide that into the total number of tourists per year into Mexico (23 million in 2008). Compare that homicide number to your local crime statistics and it puts things in more accurate perspective.
I really like this AOL travel report posted recently:
Bottom line is you have to be aware of your surroundings and take care wherever you go today. The planet is not 100% safe anywhere but some common sense will go a long way to keep you from becoming a statistic IMHO...
: smack:
I guess things said here fall on deaf ears.
You can't, I repeat CAN'T rely on 'official' statistics on crime in Mexico. It's not that the actuaries involved in reporting stats are dishonest in Mexico (as they are in China) , it's that people don't report crimes! Plain and simple. I have been victim to numerous crimes, and only reported them when I had an insurance claim to file. Most people in Mexico refuse to report crimes because it's futile... the police are a useless waste of space, uniform, cars and petrol. The crime rate in Mexico is GROSSLY under-reported.
I don't know what Mexico City fella lives in, but in the Mexico City that I know, over HALF of the people I know have at some point either been kidnapped or been victims of violent crime/assault. And this totally excludes domestic vilolence. Yes, half of the people haven't experienced this, (fella falls in this category), but half is still pretty bad. And when I got assaulted on a subway station, and told another friend of mine about it, he said, "Oh yeah, the same thing happened to me at that station. I don't go there after dark now." It's so nonchalant... so matter-of-factly.
I'm not being a negative ned, but I feel that the whole Mexico forum is just a bunch of cheerleaders for safety in Mexico city, and I feel there needs to be a two-way discussion on crime, which is a very serious problem in Mexico as a whole.
Like I said before, when you poll the average American what their biggest concerns are for their nation, it'll usually be: healthcare, the wars in iraq and afghanistan, the economy, education, terrorism, etc. If/when you ask the average Mexican the same thing CRIME and SAFETY would always be in the top 5, and depending on the person you ask, it could even be #1. I'm sorry guys, but safety levels are NOT the same in Mexico as in the U.S.
If I walk through a dangerous neighborhood in the U.S. during the day, I would get hassled, but even the most unscrupulous gang members (many of them MEXICANS) would think twice about shooting or kidnapping me. My chances of going to Tepito by myself and coming out are alive are much smaller.
If I arrive at a major international airport in the U.S., and exchange my euros or other currency, the cashier at the cambio is not incahoots with muggers waiting for me to turn the corner. But in Mexico City, this is very much a daily occurence. A man from France died recently like this.
I can go to almost any ATM in even the seediest American neighborhood and not have to watch my back. ATMs in Mexico City are fortresses.
Aside from hollywood movies, I've never known an American public transit bus to be hijacked and all the pasengers be fleesed from all their valuables. It has happened regularly in Mexico City.
I don't think there's ever been a wave of kidnapping that's swept ANY U.S. city. Many famous people, and even some middle class people in Mexico have been victim of this.
If I take a taxi in any U.S. city, (even New York, L.A., Chicago, Detroit, etc) I can rest assured that it's more than likely a legitimate taxi, and not an impersonator that will take me on a wild ride to empty out my bank account. You even stated, fella, that you have to know which taxis to take and which ones to not.
Go to a gay club in the U.S. Now go to a gay club in Mexico City. I don't think I've ever been to a gay club in any U.S. city (my little brother is gay, so I've been many times) where there are posters plastered over the wall that say, "Your next hookup could be your assasin" accompanied by a list of things to do to ensure that you are not a victim of violent crime.
The list can go on and on and on and on. To say that crime isn't a SERIOUS problem in Mexico is grossly incorrect. And this isn't just my view because I am a Mexican expatriate. Many, many people inside of Mexico feel like this. This forum, however, seems to be a watering hole for dellirium.
Mexico is still safe for tourists, for now. But I don't doubt that they day will soon come when even that is untrue.
I only post this from USA Today because this is another example of violence in an average US city. You can easily find more incidents of violent behavior in most any daily newspaper. Am I imagining it or has violence increased world-wide. One wonders what general causes can be attributed to what feels like an uptick in violent crime. Is it the current economic situation or the hateful political climate? Have too many people totally abandoned their value systems and lost respect for their fellow man/woman? Might it be lack of education and/or the absence of economic opportunity? I've been around for a while and maybe it's because I'm better informed than previously but to me it feels so different than even a few decades ago. It seems rather as though there's an uncontrollable epidemic of violence spreading, which is now touching the lives of many average people, who decades ago would have been immune. Maybe this is not the thread to discuss this but Mexico's current situation seems to be the main media culprit when it comes to reported crime - but, the fact is it is *everywhere*..
____
Seven Shot near New Orleans French Quarter 7 shot near New Orleans' French Quarter - USATODAY.com
Nobody is denying there is serious violence in the U.S. and New Orleans has a rep for being a bit violent and one should be a little more careful there, but I think the real difference behind perceptions of violence in Mexico and the U.S. will be what happens next. I could be wrong but I predict the police will actively investigate and ultimately make an arrest in this case.
[*]I can go to almost any ATM in even the seediest American neighborhood and not have to watch my back. ATMs in Mexico City are fortresses.[*]Aside from hollywood movies, I've never known an American public transit bus to be hijacked and all the pasengers be fleesed from all their valuables. It has happened regularly in Mexico City.[*]I don't think there's ever been a wave of kidnapping that's swept ANY U.S. city. Many famous people, and even some middle class people in Mexico have been victim of this.
I wouldn't say that about ATM machines. There are attacks on people using desolate ATM machines. There was this case:
On that night, March 10, 2000, Sophia stopped for money at an ATM on Viscount. There, the Burges High School senior was approached by William Josef Berkley.
He shot her once in the face through the passenger window of her car to rob her of $200. His best friend, Michael Angelo Jacques, needed the money to pay a probation fee.
And we have a city well-known for kidnapping for ransom:
Phoenix, Arizona has recently received the dubious distinction of being named the kidnapping capital of the United States. Second only to Mexico City in the world in terms of rates of violent kidnappings, local officials have cautioned that Phoenix is caught in a dangerous and even deadly crime wave.
nobody is denying there is serious violence in the u.s. And new orleans has a rep for being a bit violent and one should be a little more careful there, but i think the real difference behind perceptions of violence in mexico and the u.s. Will be what happens next. I could be wrong but i predict the police will actively investigate and ultimately make an arrest in this case.
Phoenix, Arizona has recently received the dubious distinction of being named the kidnapping capital of the United States. Second only to Mexico City in the world in terms of rates of violent kidnappings, local officials have cautioned that Phoenix is caught in a dangerous and even deadly crime wave.
And the majority of kindappers and the majority of kidnapped are from...
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,440,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo
I left Juarez long before it was the crap town that it is now. I left Juarez when it was actually easier to get a job there than the rest of the nation.
You outlined the inherent problem in doing business in Mexico and the risks you take. The problem is that, if I had my books in order, if they really wanted to shaft me, they'd find a way to do it. They would find or make up something to spite me for not giving them a bribe or paying them off. How come there are so many succesful entrepreneurs? Well, it's called corruption, cronism, nepotism, monopolies and chronic oligarchy. The richest man in Mexico, and the world, started out by inheriting a state-run monopoly. With the money he indeed made wise investments and now is the richest man, but the initial investment for his wealth was made through a very unfair monopoly. Stories like these abound. Unfortunately, my family was only middle class, and didn't have the 'hook ups' with government officials. But... if there is a gene for entrepreneurship, we all have it. All my siblings and my cousins who live in the states are all their own bosses in one way or another. Maybe it would have been the same in Mexico, but without as much money. Who knows.
Exactly, who knows, I know many succesful entrepreneurs that didn't have the connections you say, for example my best friend started a coral farm in Mexico city, it hasn't gone public yet, but when it will trust me it's gonna be big, the only thing he did was to research about coral breeding, then he started to develop his own techniques and 2 investors got interested.
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And I'm not saying that Mexicans are genetically predisposed to steal and no American employee doesn't. Most of my employees are Mexicans born stateside. It's just the environment in Mexico to do so. And it's not imaginary... I know how the work environment is in Mexico. Yes, there are many hardworking people, but it's the environment that if you are in the position that you can steal or screw the boss a little bit, you'll do it enough not to get caught. No, not everyone does it... but I know I'd run a highesr risk of it happening it to me in Mexico than in the States. It's really consequential of poverty and destitution, I totally understand that. And in many instances, it's a very uncaring and selfish boss or strongman that's in charge, so people don't think twice. In the U.S., all my employees get a bonus if profits go up. Overall, they have a somewhat o ownership of the company, and they don't see the need to steal.
I can agree with this, but it's not the end of the world, and it also depends much on several factors.
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Conversely, you are so optiimistic because you are there. Something ties you to Mexico, whether it's the inability to travel, or just the over-romantic feeling of Mexico. You have to convince yourself that Mexico is worth staying in. You have to convince yourself that it's not so bad.
Right now I'm not in Mexico, I just returned to Brazil yesterday after being in Chile the past week, I do travel a lot because of my job and I have more flexibility to immigrate other countries than most people, I've already lived in the USA and Brazil and this has given me a different perspective of things, let's compare your points with mine in the next replies.
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So what if people only make 3000 MXP a month in Mexico City? At least there are starbucks on reforma, a beautiful new building by chapultepec park, dozens of Sanborns where most Mexicans can only afford to peruse through magazines and go to the bathroom.
It is true that wages are considerably lower in Mexico than in the USA and most first world countries, specially the minimum wages, and this is something frustrating because things could be different but the political parties keep fighting each other instead of making the changes required, but even if you live in Sweden, there will be people making even less than that in other parts of the world, if you went to India to give an Example you'd understand why Mexico is called a middle income country. Besides that, even if you are among the poorest of the poor, there are opportunities in this country which is filled with several examples of people who didn't have anything but became succesful because they studied, and didn't start having lots of kids then became ambulantes, Mexico has free public universities that are among the best in the world, some really poor people has changed their lifes with a career at UNAM or the POLI.
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So what if Ecatepec still doesn't have running water, and over a million people living there? At least the center of the city is nicer than it used to be and there are more nice cars on the road. So what if crime shoots through the roof and everyone is affected by it? Hasn't happened to me yet, so I'm good. So what if my cellphone bill is twice what it would be in the United States in real dollars at least the cost of food is lo... oop nevermind. At least the cost of housing is lo...op nevermind. At least taxes are... oop, nevermind. I guess this is what you call progress.
I don't know where did you get the idea that ecatepec doesn't have running water, there have been shortages overtime though like when Luz y Fuerza cut the energy feeding several tanks because nobody was paying, or a failure that happened more recently that left people without water, at least in Mexico city and most major cities of Mexico even people who lives in slums have running water because of the populism inherited of the PRI era.
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I do respect you, however... because you honestly believe in Mexico. I wish I had the gall to do that. While 20-30 million Mexicans have jumped the titanic, you stand at the helm of the boat and say, "aw cmon guys, the water isn't thatcold. "
20 - 30 million is an exaggeration, so what if some people go? These are exactly the people who jump at the first hardship, if the USA would have problems do you think these people would stay and do something? ah but they would be the first ones to come to Mexico to reap the benefits of those who put the house in order when it happens.
But I do understand you in a way, because Mexico can get frustrating sometimes, I work in the electronic music business, and I used to organize big parties (Over 6,000+ people) in Mexico city and the surrounding area I stopped because I suffered heavy losses due to corruption of the security staff that was letting people in for less money, I also once went to play to Iztapalapa and the party had to stop because a gang arrived, but it was also my fault for playing in an unsafe part of the city, but well some months before that I played in Brazil for the first time, and I was shocked because it's massive and very well organized professional, so after those disappointments I decided to go to Brazil to see what happened, and I ended staying for 2 years, I still consider Brazil my second home and one of the most special places on earth, and I was making good money and playing at awesome parties here, but yet I missed a lot of things of Mexico, and the more I knew other countries the more I saw that every place has it's good and bad side, no country is perfect and I believe that there are countries/cultures that suit you more depending on your personality, a lot of americans live in Mexico and love it for example.
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Back on the topic of crime: it probably isn't as bad as I say it is. I've just had very bad experiences. And yes, I am bitter. I am bitted I had to leave...I love Mexico. And I wish it would get it's act together... because even though I own a house... even though I won my own business. ... it still feels like I am away from home. Nothing beats like being in your own country.
I'm sorry that all those things happened to you, those are exactly the things that can make you bitter, but those things can happen to anyone anywhere, not just in Mexico, life is full of good and bad things and imho becoming better when hardships come is not a wise attitude because you'll always have to face them no matter where, and see exactly that's what happened to me nothing beats like being in your own country, and you can also do something to contribute positively to it, specially those who own business who keep the economy moving and hiring people.
Mexico is getting better, and is a much better place to live than it was 30 years ago, it has some serious issues though right now, but we've been through worse and survived, some things might get worse before they get better though like violence, but I believe that after calderon goes away, the next president will be wiser and will gradually stop this war and the violence will return to normal levels. There are many structural problems to solve though ending with the syndicates influence over many things, like education, energy, health because that's the real problem of Mexico, if those white elephants of the monopolies, corrupt syndicates, etc education, infrastructure and health services would be better.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,440,037 times
Reputation: 1463
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo
: smack:
I guess things said here fall on deaf ears.
You can't, I repeat CAN'T rely on 'official' statistics on crime in Mexico. It's not that the actuaries involved in reporting stats are dishonest in Mexico (as they are in China) , it's that people don't report crimes! Plain and simple. I have been victim to numerous crimes, and only reported them when I had an insurance claim to file. Most people in Mexico refuse to report crimes because it's futile... the police are a useless waste of space, uniform, cars and petrol. The crime rate in Mexico is GROSSLY under-reported.
I don't know what Mexico City fella lives in, but in the Mexico City that I know, over HALF of the people I know have at some point either been kidnapped or been victims of violent crime/assault. And this totally excludes domestic vilolence. Yes, half of the people haven't experienced this, (fella falls in this category), but half is still pretty bad. And when I got assaulted on a subway station, and told another friend of mine about it, he said, "Oh yeah, the same thing happened to me at that station. I don't go there after dark now." It's so nonchalant... so matter-of-factly.
I'm not being a negative ned, but I feel that the whole Mexico forum is just a bunch of cheerleaders for safety in Mexico city, and I feel there needs to be a two-way discussion on crime, which is a very serious problem in Mexico as a whole.
Come on half the people of one of the biggest cities of the world is an exaggeration, it is true that Mexico city has a kidnappings problem, I even know someone who was kidnapped, she was able to convince her captors that she didn't have money and was released, she was very lucky, because others have lost a finger or their lifes, specially those who are among the rich and famous, like Nelson Vargas, Vicente Fernandez, Thalia, etc. I also have a friend whose car was stolen after leaving his girlfriend at home, near my home there is a street where auto part robbery is frequent if you leave your car outside. Nobody says that there isn't a crime problem in Mexico, some parts are worse than others though, specially big urban centers, drug cartels routes and both the south and nothern borders, but if you use common sense the chances of getting in trouble are reduced, I also believe that if you keep thinking negatively and living in fear of being robbed, kidnapped, etc, you keep attracting those things to your life as well.
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If I walk through a dangerous neighborhood in the U.S. during the day, I would get hassled, but even the most unscrupulous gang members (many of them MEXICANS) would think twice about shooting or kidnapping me. My chances of going to Tepito by myself and coming out are alive are much smaller.
What world you live in? There are several violent places in the USA where gangs dominate, in some cities there are even streets that you can't enter if you aren't of the appropiate color, but most people avoids those just like most people in Mexico city avoid Tepito, cities like detroit or LA have a violence problem that isn't new, kidnappings in the USA are on the rise specially in Phoenix.
Quote:
If I arrive at a major international airport in the U.S., and exchange my euros or other currency, the cashier at the cambio is not incahoots with muggers waiting for me to turn the corner. But in Mexico City, this is very much a daily occurence. A man from France died recently like this.
Yes and because of this now the airport is loaded with security cameras and many thieves have been caught after that incident.
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I can go to almost any ATM in even the seediest American neighborhood and not have to watch my back. ATMs in Mexico City are fortresses.
Fortresses? I wish because that could provide some safety specially when taking money at night, but they are just behind crystal windows, and everybody can come in and out, so they aren't exactly fortresses, I know people who has been robbed while withdrawing money from the ATM, specially at night, I don't withdraw at night because of this, I also don't enter to an ATM if it isn't empty and watch to see if there isn't anyone nearby.
Quote:
Aside from hollywood movies, I've never known an American public transit bus to be hijacked and all the pasengers be fleesed from all their valuables. It has happened regularly in Mexico City.
I don't think there's ever been a wave of kidnapping that's swept ANY U.S. city. Many famous people, and even some middle class people in Mexico have been victim of this.
If I take a taxi in any U.S. city, (even New York, L.A., Chicago, Detroit, etc) I can rest assured that it's more than likely a legitimate taxi, and not an impersonator that will take me on a wild ride to empty out my bank account. You even stated, fella, that you have to know which taxis to take and which ones to not.
Go to a gay club in the U.S. Now go to a gay club in Mexico City. I don't think I've ever been to a gay club in any U.S. city (my little brother is gay, so I've been many times) where there are posters plastered over the wall that say, "Your next hookup could be your assasin" accompanied by a list of things to do to ensure that you are not a victim of violent crime.
Quote:
The list can go on and on and on and on. To say that crime isn't a SERIOUS problem in Mexico is grossly incorrect. And this isn't just my view because I am a Mexican expatriate. Many, many people inside of Mexico feel like this. This forum, however, seems to be a watering hole for dellirium.
Mexico is still safe for tourists, for now. But I don't doubt that they day will soon come when even that is untrue.
Nobody says that Mexico isn't unsafe, but one thing is being unsafe and another is being unlivable, wherever you go you have to adapt to your environment, for example, car insurance is a must, withdrawing money at night is a big no-no, specially alone, there are neighboorhoods is better to avoid, being discrete about your income is important too, avoiding association with people who are involved with criminal activity is important too. A lot of people has this habits in dangerous cities in the USA too, like Detroit, LA, Phoenix, yet I agree in something you and drivertodd said, the main difference between the USA and Mexico regarding crime is that if you are a victim of crime in the USA and report it, they will do their job professionally and efficiently, American police is one of the best of the world, because they have the brains, technology, resources to find out what happened and solve it and they aren't corrupt, this is something that I believe will still take a long time to be solved unfortunately, because how can you change a culture? perhaps by avoiding to give in to corruption, not so long ago I had to pay a fine because I forgot to turn my lights on at night, the cop was expecting it but I asked to be fined instead, yes it was a hassle to pay it, specially because they take away your license until you pay it, and I had to go to the state of Mexico because that's where this happened, but I paid it the next day so I got a 50% discount.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,440,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute
I hope enough others are like you -- because your kind is what your country most needs. It's future will be determined by those who remain in it and create it into what it will be.
Mexico is still among the richest nations in the world, it has so much potential. It seemed on the brink of something very good not that long ago.
Juarez might be another story. So many are leaving that it may be unsaveable at this point. I see it like Detroit which was once an industrial capital but now is deserted and bleak. The only ones still there are those who didn't have the means to flee it and there's less and less hope.
I have great faith on Mexico, and I believe it's made great progress, although it has been slow and there have been a lot of growing pains, like the ones we are facing now, democracy is still young in Mexico so instead of having agreements and doing what's needed parties fight each other, although now things are starting to get interesting.
Mexico is a great nation, with an incredible history, lots of natural resources, awesome weather, good food, it has it's share of corruption, unequality, the country is also kind of messy, it could be much more ordered and well administered, but things have changed much since the 80's for example, many people among the middle class think like this, there are others that complain much about how bad things are here, but most of them tend to be those in the left with marxist ideas who say that calderon should resign, security has become a national concern though, but it's just like with illegal immigration in the USA, some people consider it a serious threat and spend most of their time looking for news regarding those things, and others don't worry that much. Some people believe Mexico is beyond repair and they prefer to go to "functional" countries, and some people will never leave or would leave only under extreme circumstances.
I do believe though that this political and social impasse, and the dependency we have on the USA will end sooner or later, just as the PRI lost the presidency, hopefully it wont take other 70 years hehe
Fair enough, fella. I can agree to some stuff: What I would agree to in this day long discussion (I am bored here, as if you couldnt already tell... i teach classes at night) is the following:
Mexico is not unliveable. I didn't leave Mexico because of how unliveable it was. Even Mexico city is liveable. I go back there every 16 de Septiembreto party my butt off and visit old college friends and new friends (I even have a Mexico City girlfriend I see once a year :-p ) To be fair, Mexico city and many cities in Mexico are in fact,more unsafe than U.S. Cities. Mexico City is more dangerous than any U.S. city. Yes, there is crime in many U.S. Cities, but the level of crime in Mexico, and the sheer brutality of it (You even said it, fingers cut off etc) is much higher. You have to be street smart to live in Mexico City, a requirement that isn't necessary in New York, Chicago, L.A., etc.
but fella, you ignore the fact that while most Americans don't list CRIME as a big concern for their nation, in Mexico, crime and safety are always in the top 5.
There is hope for Mexico, although I believe you may be a bit optimistic about it. Purchasing power has a loong way to go in Mexico. The girl that I like to hook up with lives with her boyfriend (dont need moral police, thank you) and together they make about 7000 MXP a month. I'm sorry, but that's abhorrent. Everytime I go to Mexico City, aside from the condo I rent out, I end up spending about 5000 mxp a week in just food, taxis and going out, nothing too extravagant. Yes, there has been much more progress in the last 10 yrs than in the previous 70 yrs, depending on who you ask. If you haven't already, listen to Juan Luis Guerra's El Costo De la Vida song, it epitomizes the situation in Mexico now. Prices have gone up dramatically, but the majority of the population's wages have stayed the same. The business environment isn't as aggressive as needed.
Mexico doesn't need sacrificial lambs, as malamute suggests, that should stay in Mexico and work and make the economy better. That's not how it happened in Italy. Mexico needs to create an environment safe for investment, opportunities for young professionals, and in general a vibrant environment for intellectualism and innovation. Mexico needs to strapm down and brace itself for globalization and worldwide competition, instead of whining about foreign companies taking over all of Mexico. Mexicans need to educate themselves and make the nation a major competitor in the world market instead of slowly slipping down the list of GDPs and loosing competitive advantages to Asian nations.
Back on the crime thing... no I am not a horrible pessimist that hates Mexico and thinks it's the scum of the earth. I love Mexico, but I think it is important to point out, AGAIN, that crime and safety are among the top 5 national concerns for Mexicans, while that doesn't even register in the top 10 of Americans' concerns. Is it crime levels, or police responsiveness that triggers that? well, I guess that's another thread for us, isn't it fella?
Oh and just in case you seriously doubted by 30 million claim:
Yes I understand that it includes those already born there, but it's still 30 million of us that live outside our 'homeland'.
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