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Can you point me to the deaths caused by this? From everything I've read the deaths caused by legionella are not known to be connected. And the 87 cases/10 deaths statistic is for all of Genesee County, not just Flint. Also we should consider that the CDC detects about 8,000-18,000 cases per year nationally (though the rate in Genesee County is significantly higher, with 87 cases, when compared to the rate nationally).
I'm not saying they aren't related, quite frankly I have no idea, I'm just saying let's wait until we know they're related before we start dishing out the murderous accusations, that seem to be far to permissible on the internet.
I'm sorry, but does nobody else feel like blaming the governor for this makes about as much sense as blaming Hillary for Benghazi or blaming the CEO of Ford for exploding airbags? I'm far from a Snyder-fan and understand he must take responsibility in this, but c'mon why do we have to make everything so partisan?
You and Jswee are the only ones mentioning political parties or partisanship on here.
I agree though, that the legionnaires disease cases have not been proven to be related. Correlation does not equal causation.
The man who ran against Snyder for governor has a pretty good sound response:
I know for every one person who comments on this thread, there are a hundred people reading and not commenting, so I'll keep posting articles. I tend to stay away from the national media outlets because they have a lot of the facts incorrect.
You've heard it before: we need to run government like a business!
"This Modern World/Tom Tomorrow" weigh in on Gov. Snyder and Flint Water Crisis
after mention of the matter in the last Democratic presidential debate:
About a month and a half later, through the insistence of Snyder, the Governor and legislature tweaked the law a bit and passed it in a lame duck session on December 27th (many people were still celebrating Christmas and not paying attention to the news).
He also added an appropriation to the measure making it immune to referendum (no way that Michigan voters can overturn it).
This is just part of a long list of moves by Snyder that have been quietly driving his opponents to the brink of revolt, which is probably why this Flint Water Crisis has reached such a boiling temperature.
The Mayor has no power under EM law. This is a really interesting piece of the timeline:
March 2014: Flint’s Emergency Manager Darnell Earley sends a letter to Detroit’s water system, refusing the final short term contract offer. It acknowledges the option to continue buying water from Detroit. But these short term offers would’ve cost Flint at least $10 million more over the two years it would take to build the new water system Flint will join next year. Instead, Earley writes, “the City of Flint has actively pursued using the Flint River as a temporary water source.” The only people with any authority over this decision were Flint’s string of emergency managers.
Not true. Just because an EM is in place does not dissolve the city council or the mayors office. They have to seek approval from the EM and the State Treasurer for expenditures over $50,000 but they still have the authority to make decisions, the EM has the authority to veto or deny those decisions.
The decision to stop buying water from Detroit and join the KWA was solidly on the shoulders of the City Council. It was then approved by the EM and the State Treasurer but never would have happened unless the City voted to make the switch.
If you want to understand the backstory of how that decision was made, this series of contemporary articles makes the whole thing clear.
Not true. Just because an EM is in place does not dissolve the city council or the mayors office. They have to seek approval from the EM and the State Treasurer for expenditures over $50,000 but they still have the authority to make decisions, the EM has the authority to veto or deny those decisions.
The decision to stop buying water from Detroit and join the KWA was solidly on the shoulders of the City Council. It was then approved by the EM and the State Treasurer but never would have happened unless the City voted to make the switch.
If you want to understand the backstory of how that decision was made, this series of contemporary articles makes the whole thing clear.
I know for every one person who comments on this thread, there are a hundred people reading and not commenting, so I'll keep posting articles. I tend to stay away from the national media outlets because they have a lot of the facts incorrect.
Just calling it how it feels to me. I don't like Snyder. I think the position he took on immigration was quite telling of what kind of a politician he is, but I also just don't think he's the monster the media has made him out to be.
I do agree with Mark Schauer's steps on what could be done. I especially agree with the refunding all water bills since the switch (and not charging them until the scale is sufficiently restored), repealing the EM position, and replacing all lead infrastructure ones, but I think I disagree the last one. I think we need to assess the situation and see what the actual damage done to the people of Flint is first. Like I've tried to point out more than once, the number of kids who actually showed lead concentrations in their blood greater than 5 mcg/dL is really quite low compared to what I'd have expected after reading about how the sky is falling in Flint.
Yes, any lead poisoning is too much lead poisoning, I agree, but according to testing so far the number of children with high levels of lead in their blood really hasn't exceeded typical values for Michigan or even America. If anything we should use the outcry over this to address lead issues in everyone's water. Do you live in a house built before 1978? Well, you probably have lead in your pipes. The only thing protecting you is that layer of phosphoric scale.
Shower thought here, what was it like before 70s? Were lead poisoning cases normal? I get that the reason it's so bad in Flint is because the lead was protected for decades and then suddenly not protected so it came in much higher concentrations, but these pipes were pretty standard for quite literally generations. Was it just something people lived with?
Just calling it how it feels to me. I don't like Snyder. I think the position he took on immigration was quite telling of what kind of a politician he is, but I also just don't think he's the monster the media has made him out to be.
I do agree with Mark Schauer's steps on what could be done. I especially agree with the refunding all water bills since the switch (and not charging them until the scale is sufficiently restored), repealing the EM position, and replacing all lead infrastructure ones, but I think I disagree the last one. I think we need to assess the situation and see what the actual damage done to the people of Flint is first. Like I've tried to point out more than once, the number of kids who actually showed lead concentrations in their blood greater than 5 mcg/dL is really quite low compared to what I'd have expected after reading about how the sky is falling in Flint.
Yes, any lead poisoning is too much lead poisoning, I agree, but according to testing so far the number of children with high levels of lead in their blood really hasn't exceeded typical values for Michigan or even America. If anything we should use the outcry over this to address lead issues in everyone's water. Do you live in a house built before 1978? Well, you probably have lead in your pipes. The only thing protecting you is that layer of phosphoric scale.
Shower thought here, what was it like before 70s? Were lead poisoning cases normal? I get that the reason it's so bad in Flint is because the lead was protected for decades and then suddenly not protected so it came in much higher concentrations, but these pipes were pretty standard for quite literally generations. Was it just something people lived with?
From what I understand, older water pipes all over Michigan (and probably much of the older Great Lakes and Northeastern State urban areas) were soldered with a lot of lead content, which slowly leaches into the water system but not at levels that are dangerous, normally. However, the Flint River is much higher in Chloride than Detroit City water, which corrodes the lead in the solders. In fact, some scientific studies done earlier in Sept 2015 predicted that the Flint River is so corrosive that treating it like they do the Detroit water wouldn't have done any good.
In other words, if the MDEQ had done as thorough of a job as they were supposed to in recommending or not recommending using Flint River in the interim, they probably should have said "NO WAY. Do not use Flint River water."
The switch from Detroit water to KVA was by all standards a very good decision to make. It was the decision to use Flint River water in the interim (because KVA wasn't ready for Flint to join them yet) that was treated callously and with much neglect. I don't believe it was done with malice, but it certainly has the hallmarks of "doing the least amount of regulatory work as possible in order to save money." I also don't think Snyder should be "arrested" or anything like that.
But Jesus H Christ if you walked down the streets of Flint and asked people to drink from the Flint River, they probably would have thought you were insane. It'd be like asking Grand Rapidians to drink from the Grand River, or Detroiters to drink from the River Rouge, but even worse.
The switch from Detroit water to KWA is not the issue at hand, and you know it. You're definitely a spin-meister though. Kudos for that.
Yet there are a lot of people who are upset over the EM law and who are trying to link the Flint water issue to actions taken by the EM's in Flint, as Mark Schauer did in the editorial you just linked to. It's important to keep the record straight so that such attempts to mislead people are not believed by all of those people who read but don't comment, that you referred to.
From what I understand, older water pipes all over Michigan (and probably much of the older Great Lakes and Northeastern State urban areas) were soldered with a lot of lead content, which slowly leaches into the water system but not at levels that are dangerous, normally. However, the Flint River is much higher in Chloride than Detroit City water, which corrodes the lead in the solders. In fact, some scientific studies done earlier in Sept 2015 predicted that the Flint River is so corrosive that treating it like they do the Detroit water wouldn't have done any good.
In other words, if the MDEQ had done as thorough of a job as they were supposed to in recommending or not recommending using Flint River in the interim, they probably should have said "NO WAY. Do not use Flint River water."
The switch from Detroit water to KVA was by all standards a very good decision to make. It was the decision to use Flint River water in the interim that was treated callously and with much neglect. I don't believe it was done with malice, but it certainly has the hallmarks of "doing the least amount of regulatory work as possible in order to save money."
Your understanding is not correct.
There are 4 primary sources for lead in water in municipal water supplies.
1) Lead supply stubs that run from city water mains to individual shut offs for each property, which are owned by the city.
2) Lead service lines that run from the individual shut offs to the house underground, which are owned by the homeowner.
3) copper plumbing that was installed prior to 1982, which was soldered with lead flux or solder in the joints.
4) Brass fixtures that have lead content.
All of these sources are commonly found all over the United States, Flint is in no way unique in that respect.
Lead leaching is mitigated in most cases due to the buildup of mineral scale on the inside of pipes, which encapsulates the lead and prevents most leaching from occurring. Most source water used by municipal sources is hard water, so chemicals are added to soften the water as part of the treatment process. Softened water tends to dissolve the mineral scale on the inside of pipes, which is what is preventing lead leaching, so other chemicals (phosphates) are typically added to prevent that mineral scale in the pipes from dissolving. That process is called water optimization. Flint River water was hard and needed a lot of softening done to it in order for it to be usable.
The water from Detroit was already optimized, Flint did not have to treat it.
When Flint signed on to the KWA project, they had two options for getting water during the 2 - 3 years before the new pipeline was finished. They could try and negotiate with Detroit to continue to buy water or they could use the existing back-up source for the Flint water system, which was the Flint River. The plan that was approved by the Flint city council called for blending KWA pipeline water with Flint River water if the volume needed increased in the future as the contract with KWA was for a fixed quantity of water. Flint River water was always part of the KWA plan in some aspect.
When Flint announced that it was going with the KWA, Detroit attempted to play hardball and sent them a one year termination notice that would still leave them 12 - 24 months short of a water supply. It was not until 9 months later, after Flint had made millions of dollars in upgrades to the Flint Water treatment plant, to be able to treat both of the new sources, Flint River and KWA water, that Detroit offered to sell them water on a short term basis (at a huge rate increase).
The problems in Flint occurred because phosphates were not added from the start when the switch to Flint River water occurred. The EPA regulations governing water optimization were ambiguous and there was nothing in the regulations that requires that water optimization occur until after a 17 month testing period, where the water was analyzed and a plan for optimization was completed. It was during that testing period when the lead leaching occurred.
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Kudos for that.
