Minneapolis-St. Paul Ranked #4th Snobbiest City. (Buffalo, Cleveland: apartment, nicest, estimates)

[Govie]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I grew up in Minneapolis in the '80s and many of my friends had parents of different races. In fact, this city was known as a place that was more open to interracial couples and families than most parts of the country (this at a time when it was outright illegal in some parts of the United States). I guess I just find it hard to believe that in the '90s it would have been all that unusual or noteworthy to be a biracial kid in Minneapolis. It certainly is not today.

Pretty sure that part of the reason to this day that Prince makes Minneapolis/Minnesota his home and is fairly proud of it (a couple albums ago he released "MPLSound", for example)

[Astron1000]

Originally Posted by Cleverfield

... Cleveland may be shrouded with layers of grit and fog, but underneath it lies a golden city, a city that had ambitions and dreams that could rival New York City. Those dreams were crushed by the great depression, but their mark on the city remains, shrouded with the mystery of a bygone era, but ostensibly connected to the heart and the will of the city itself. People who know only what they see on TV or read about in magazines like Forbes find it easy to dismiss Cleveland as a run down dump. What these ignorant people miss, like those who only see a person's scars, wrinkles and blemishes, but not their heart or their soul, is the blood that truly runs in the veins of every Clevelander, the heart that beats for the city with the big, mighty, splendid soul whose fortunes were crossed in another era. And as the city rises, and as it makes the top lists in the magazines, what they'll continue to miss is how we are rebuilding around the same soul that they mocked.

Best, most poetic post ever about how Cleveland was once great and now struggles to regain its past.

I'm sorry, am I poking the bear? I jest. I really do like Cleveland, in spite of Cleverfield's assumptions that I think it's a dump. But right now the Twin Cities are heads-and-shoulders above Cleveland in terms of career opportunities, quality of life, education, income and economic growth.

Just to establish some base lines...

Minneapolis is 54 sq. miles (And let's just leave an almost equally successful St.Paul out of the equation for now). Cleveland is 78 sq. miles.
Minneapolis has 400,000 residents (Gain of 17,000 since 2010) , Cleveland has 390,000 (Loss of 6.700 since 2010) Ummm...doesn't that say something about the desirability of each city?

For us urban planning geeks, Minneapolis is now far and away the Midwest's 2nd-densest city.

Let's look at some other metrics...

Unemployment rate: Cleveland 8%...Minneapolis 3.9%
Median Home Price: Cleveland $117,700...Minneapolis $196,200
Density: Cleveland 5.031 ppsm...Minneapolis 7,279 ppsm
Graduate Enrollment: Cleveland 5,194...Minneapolis 13,421
Median Income: Cleveland $26,556...Minneapolis $48,881

(And this does not cover the entire metro. Metro MSP's Median income is $62,352. CLE's Metro median income is $46,231)

I could go on and on. (And I will if requested...) There is a profound difference here.

The metrics are clear. MSP surpasses every other metro in the Midwest in nearly every category apart from the leader, Chicago.

I know I will get killed for this...but MSP is now the Midwest's #2 metro. Above Detroit. Above Cleveland. Above St. Louis. I'm sorry if that offends old school thinking. But this is the 21st Century. MSP has sneaked past the traditional Midwest powerhouses and has positioned itself as the hi-tech and diversified business center of the Midwest.

[northsub]

Originally Posted by Astron1000

Minneapolis has 400,000 residents (Gain of 17,000 since 2010) ,

If you are going to believe the estimates and compare them to census totals, then you should also point out that Minneapolis lost 7,553 people between 2008 and 2010.

And graduate enrollment as a measure of how well a city is doing? Really? That makes it look like you picked out the few things you could find that Minneapolis had a number better than Cleveland. I'm left wondering if Cleveland had better numbers than Minneapolis in most everything else. That would surprise me, but you've at least made me wonder.

[Astron1000]

Originally Posted by northsub

If you are going to believe the estimates and compare them to census totals, then you should also point out that Minneapolis lost 7,553 people between 2008 and 2010.

???
Not sure where you got that...

Minneapolis Census 2008: 382,133
Minneapolis Census 2010: 382,578

Nearly all Northern and Midwestern large cities experienced a decline in population post-1950. But Cleveland's decline has been precipitous. (Though not nearly as bad as Detroit.)

Originally Posted by northsub

And graduate enrollment as a measure of how well a city is doing? Really? That makes it look like you picked out the few things you could find that Minneapolis had a number better than Cleveland. I'm left wondering if Cleveland had better numbers than Minneapolis in most everything else. That would surprise me, but you've at least made me wonder.

You're right, that was arbitrary. (There are so many numbers to choose from) Putting it another way as a measure of an educated workforce:

[one is lonely]

I say this as a Detroit native and only an occasional visitor of Minneapolis... Minneapolis is definitely #2 in the Midwest after Chicago, and it has the added benefit of being much less of a troubled city than Chicago. I do think the fact that Minneapolis takes such a big dump on other Midwest metros contributes to its snobbery. They tend to look down on the competition, and who likes that?

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by Astron1000

Best, most poetic post ever about how Cleveland was once great and now struggles to regain its past.

....

I know I will get killed for this...but MSP is now the Midwest's #2 metro. Above Detroit. Above Cleveland. Above St. Louis. I'm sorry if that offends old school thinking. But this is the 21st Century. MSP has sneaked past the traditional Midwest powerhouses and has positioned itself as the hi-tech and diversified business center of the Midwest.

You are using facts and figures here and that will not work because long-term posters have all come to realize that Cleveland is the new Rosemount.

[Cleverfield]

I've acknowledged from the beginning that Minneapolis has a better economy and higher education attainment. However to say that Minneapolis surpasses Cleveland in all measures is simple arrogance, and blatantly wrong. As I've noted in many of my posts, there are many areas outside of the economy where Cleveland surpasses Minneapolis, due to its prior status as a top 5 city, and the legacy institutions and built environment that come with that. We also are a rising culinary hub, with more great dining options than Minneapolis

[pete6032]

Originally Posted by Cleverfield

I've acknowledged from the beginning that Minneapolis has a better economy and higher education attainment. However to say that Minneapolis surpasses Cleveland in all measures is simple arrogance, and blatantly wrong. As I've noted in many of my posts, there are many areas outside of the economy where Cleveland surpasses Minneapolis, due to its prior status as a top 5 city, and the legacy institutions and built environment that come with that. We also are a rising culinary hub, with more great dining options than Minneapolis

Cool story bro.

[Ghengis]

Originally Posted by pete6032

Cool story bro.

You arrrrre, my - number - one - guyyyyy!

[northsub]

Originally Posted by Astron1000

???
Not sure where you got that...

Minneapolis Census 2008: 382,133
Minneapolis Census 2010: 382,578

I was looking at the Metropolitan Council estimates which have 2008 population of 390,131 and the census total from 2010 of 382,578. The Met Council estimates from 2011-2013 track pretty well with the U.S. Census estimates from 2011 to 2013.

I don't know where you are getting the 382,133 for 2008. That must be an estimate of some kind seeing as how the census is only every 10 years. I am finding a 2008 estimate of 379,185 from this page:
http://www.census.gov/popest/data/in...B-EST00INT.csv

If I look at:
factfinder2.census.gov
I get a 2008 number of 360,914. This number seems really out of line, but it is the same table name as the 400,079 number for 2013 (ACS DEMOGRAPHIC AND HOUSING ESTIMATES).

The Census Bureau does go back and update estimates, so maybe some of that has been going on? Also, the methodology for estimates got largely reworked after the 2010 Census with one change being that population growth estimates are figured much more from a county growth rate. That means that the Minneapolis growth estimates are largely a reflection that Hennepin County has been growing. This makes me skeptical of any of the estimates that have been coming out. Particularly because all of the exurban, outer ring suburbs, and inner ring suburbs that were in population decline from 2000 to 2010 in Hennepin County also experienced a population increase from 2010 to 2013, if you believe the estimates.