why dont they build more public transportation to more suburbs (Minneapolis: rent, transfer to)

[1stpontiac]

Here is another way of looking at it:

Job density in the metro (2009) is shown in a map I posted a while ago here:
//www.city-data.com/forum/22374960-post9.html

First, assume that a train line would reasonably be used by people working within 1/2 mile of the line, so a mile-wide strip around the line.

In the heart of downtown, the job density is 175,321 jobs/sq mi. The ~5 stops in the 1 mile strip between Target Field and the Metrodome then serves:

175,321 x 1 mi long x 1 mi wide = 175,321 jobs.

The stretch of 494 just west of 35W falls into the 21,385 jobs/sq mi bin. So if you had a 5 mile stretch in there, you serve:

21,385 x 5 mi long x 1 mi wide = 106,925 jobs.

Just hard to make a business case for those suburbs lines. And the hypothetical 494 route is probably the best option in the suburbs. It gets worse anywhere else.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by l12

Regarding Northstar: I've only lived here for 3 years, and I really have a hard time understand why the hell they built the first commuter rail where they did. I can only imagine it had a lot to do with the track already being there. But it seems to me that the Northern suburbs are the most right-wing, anti-mass transit, and least-likely place for transit-oriented development or usage to take hold.

If they had spent that money doing the same thing to the west, southwest, south, towards Rochester, or in a direction closer to St. Paul as well it would have been a much better investment IMO. Maybe someone understands and can explain to me. I understand perhaps also the idea that they are lower-income suburbs so they might be more likely to take the train when gas prices rise, but I'm afraid it doesn't really work like that, at least where I'm from (the South) lower-middle class suburbanites would rather give up a few trips to Applebee's than their precious car-based "freedom" and "independence".

It really does baffle me too. Though I suppose the I-94 corridor was the fastest-growing area when planning and initial launch took place, right?

It's too bad we couldn't have found a way to run this somewhere down toward Eden Prairie and generally the Southwest suburbs. That area seems to have way more traffic problems and maybe a line like that would have led to a better SW LRT alignment.

[knke0204]

Originally Posted by xandrex

It really does baffle me too. Though I suppose the I-94 corridor was the fastest-growing area when planning and initial launch took place, right?

It's too bad we couldn't have found a way to run this somewhere down toward Eden Prairie and generally the Southwest suburbs. That area seems to have way more traffic problems and maybe a line like that would have led to a better SW LRT alignment.

Well, the I-94 corridor was the fastest and think of these numbers for communities that are part of that corridor, census #'s from 1990, and 2010.

Albertville: 1,251.......7,044
Rogers: 698........8,597
St. Michael: 1,519.......16,399
Monticello: 4,941.......12,759
Otsego: did not exsist.....13,761
Elk River: 11,143........22,974
Big Lake: 3,113..........10,060

[Beenhere4ever]

Would anyone in the south or west suburbs willingly depend on a rail service like Northstar? If people in those areas, were piling on the buses that are already running, the Metropolitan Council might do what MNDOT has done all along, namely, make plans to cope with the flow. But until maybe the last four or five years, the philosophy nationally has been to use our economic and military might to make driving cheap. The country has swung maybe halfway towards real action on energy independence, but planning takes more time than that. PLUS, it isn't as if the industries that will lose business have been sitting on the sidelines. They don't want people independent of the family car. They destroyed transit in the first place, and they will be the resistance to any attempt to reverse what was done. Economics change, and people don't understand why transportation doesn't just turn on a dime. But that's a facile understanding of how these trends work. The politics and economics of this country always insure no one can snap their fingers and effect magical change.

3M in Maplewood used to have the biggest vanpool program in the state. Employees signed up rather than sit and wait for the Metropolitan Council to deliver custom-made transit. Conservative governments helped squelch a lot of those self-help programs. So that is another reason you don't find services sitting there waiting for you. People voted conservative for their own reasons, and any political group, when it gets power does what its financial supporters want. They may have stifled tax increases, but they stifled many other things, too.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

Would anyone in the south or west suburbs willingly depend on a rail service like Northstar? If people in those areas, were piling on the buses that are already running, the Metropolitan Council might do what MNDOT has done all along, namely, make plans to cope with the flow. But until maybe the last four or five years, the philosophy nationally has been to use our economic and military might to make driving cheap. The country has swung maybe halfway towards real action on energy independence, but planning takes more time than that. PLUS, it isn't as if the industries that will lose business have been sitting on the sidelines. They don't want people independent of the family car. They destroyed transit in the first place, and they will be the resistance to any attempt to reverse what was done. Economics change, and people don't understand why transportation doesn't just turn on a dime. But that's a facile understanding of how these trends work. The politics and economics of this country always insure no one can snap their fingers and effect magical change.

3M in Maplewood used to have the biggest vanpool program in the state. Employees signed up rather than sit and wait for the Metropolitan Council to deliver custom-made transit. Conservative governments helped squelch a lot of those self-help programs. So that is another reason you don't find services sitting there waiting for you. People voted conservative for their own reasons, and any political group, when it gets power does what its financial supporters want. They may have stifled tax increases, but they stifled many other things, too.

The people in the South Metro that I know do carpool, van pool or ride the bus already. The issue is the traffic congestion, having reliable mass transit would alleviate much of that. If not a mass transit system, then they need to upgrade the current routes to handle the 1,000,000+ person growth the area has seen since those roads were built....right now the bus routes for suburb to suburb commutes are down right ridiculous. No one in Minneapolis would take the bus if they were required to be bused out to Northfield and back to a place that is 8 miles from their house--which is what the current route basically do right now from the suburb.

[uptown_urbanist]

well, there's also the argument that all these new people moving to the Twin Cities should factor commute into their housing or working situations when they move. If they want to avoid congestion then they either need to live near work or choose a workplace that is easier to access using public transportation. I don't necessarily think it should be the public's responsibility to make it easy and convenient for so many people to make long-distance suburb-to-suburb commutes. I'm all for updating suburb-to-suburb bus routes, but unless the rest of the infrastructure is there it's going to be tough to make public transportation the solution to suburb-to-suburb commuter congestion.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

well, there's also the argument that all these new people moving to the Twin Cities should factor commute into their housing or working situations when they move. If they want to avoid congestion then they either need to live near work or choose a workplace that is easier to access using public transportation. I don't necessarily think it should be the public's responsibility to make it easy and convenient for so many people to make long-distance suburb-to-suburb commutes. I'm all for updating suburb-to-suburb bus routes, but unless the rest of the infrastructure is there it's going to be tough to make public transportation the solution to suburb-to-suburb commuter congestion.

They do consider it, all the time, when they come here and post that they work in the suburbs and you suggest living in Minneapolis, you just add to the problem....

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by golfgal

They do consider it, all the time, when they come here and post that they work in the suburbs and you suggest living in Minneapolis, you just add to the problem....

I don't see how she screws up transit by recommending Minneapolis as a viable place to live, but don't worry. You scare plenty of them back to the suburbs.

Modern suburban communities weren't built with transit in mind. 8 miles is a long ways to go for transit and planners come up with routes that make sense based on ridership. It's clear that a route from your house to whatever workplace is 8 miles away is not feasible. If you want changes, you should be pressing MVTA for better routes.

Nobody who lives in a third-ring suburb should expect great transit service. The distance makes it difficult. You're actually so far out in the metro that despite the fact that I live in Marcy-Holmes north of downtown, I'm still closer to 494 than probably just about everyone in Rosemount.

In the meantime, the METRO Red Line is open right now and the Orange Line will be opening in the not-too-distant future. If suburban commuters can actually prove that they'll ride, chances are more lines will come. But they've got to prove it first.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by xandrex

I don't see how she screws up transit by recommending Minneapolis as a viable place to live, but don't worry. You scare plenty of them back to the suburbs.

Modern suburban communities weren't built with transit in mind. 8 miles is a long ways to go for transit and planners come up with routes that make sense based on ridership. It's clear that a route from your house to whatever workplace is 8 miles away is not feasible. If you want changes, you should be pressing MVTA for better routes.

Nobody who lives in a third-ring suburb should expect great transit service. The distance makes it difficult. You're actually so far out in the metro that despite the fact that I live in Marcy-Holmes north of downtown, I'm still closer to 494 than probably just about everyone in Rosemount.

In the meantime, the METRO Red Line is open right now and the Orange Line will be opening in the not-too-distant future. If suburban commuters can actually prove that they'll ride, chances are more lines will come. But they've got to prove it first.

According to the map you are 4 minutes closer to 494 than I am...wow, huge difference....

I'm pretty sure the "red line" comes to Minneapolis from the SUBURBS....however, we aren't talking about going to Minneapolis-that is not the issue, it's the suburb to suburb commute that 2+ million people make each day vs the 110,000 people that work in Minneapolis...

[1stpontiac]

Originally Posted by golfgal

According to the map you are 4 minutes closer to 494 than I am...wow, huge difference....

I'm pretty sure the "red line" comes to Minneapolis from the SUBURBS....however, we aren't talking about going to Minneapolis-that is not the issue, it's the suburb to suburb commute that 2+ million people make each day vs the 110,000 people that work in Minneapolis...

The red line goes to Bloomington, so it is a suburb to suburb bus.

http://www.metrotransit.org/metro-red-line

And again, see my earlier post....those 2+ million commuters are spread out at about 5,000 jobs/sq. mile. To make that financially and travel-time attractive versus driving would be nearly impossible.

No one is stopping Maple Grove Transit from running an express bus to Eden Prairie.