To the people who want to move to Montana to get away from big cities, people and enjoy "nature". (Billings: tax, shop)

[mjstef]

Originally Posted by mrwumpus

I quite disagree based on recent experience.

When we rented two years ago, we found a 5BR 3000sq ft on a river for $1450/m.

In July we tried renting in Kalispell and there was almost nothing available at fair prices. There are numerous fake listings on Craigslist, like several per day that are just spam. We looked at one $1000/m 3BR place that came up and put our name on a list with about 20 other couples. Finally, with luck, we found a 3BR place for $1,300 that was only being advertised from a yard sign. The move-in cost with one pet was $4800.

Right now on CL there are only five legitimate listings for a 3BR under $1300 in Kalispell, which is better than it was in July. And here's a posting by a disgruntled renter: https://kalispell.craigslist.org/apa...261056090.html

With prices that high we figured why not just leave the state? Then we decided to go all in and bought a house instead. It was the only option that made sense.

Yeah it got nuts. Unfortunately my situation was weighing my best options. As a business owner i constantly re-invest and take a very small salary. This left me with not qualifying for enough mortgage. 3 years in a row i added more to my income thus paying more taxes but it was never enough. I basically paid about 10K more in taxes for nothing as i didn't need the money. I'm debt free. For me the only answer was to take my $$$$$ and run as their was no way my girls could start out on their own there with the lack of decent wages. If you have any questions post em up. 12 years in the Flathead as a business owner and i have a LOT of connections

[boulder2015]

Originally Posted by shyguylh

I totally understand the original poster's mentality. You get a nice quiet secluded place, you don't want other people ruining it. Frankly, you don't care about what other people want, you only care about what YOU want. That's totally normal, if also totally selfish. I'm the same way really.

The issue is that a lot of people hate crowds, they want to be able to enjoy the outdoors without 80 billion people crowding their space, and if that means that they alone get to enjoy the area where they live and everyone else has to stay out, then so be it. As selfish as that may be, I understand and agree with it.

My best friend is one of these people. He worked and lived in western NC and loved the outdoors and the quietness of it, but over time it started becoming crowded with "half-backs" from Florida. They got on his nerves so much he'd refer to them as "Floridiots" (Florida idiots). He hated how they drove up the price of real estate, crushing his dream of having a post-retirement place with some land on it, they'd often times buy up a lot of "open" places and then not allow the locals to enjoy those spots they'd previously been able to enjoy he disliked "outsiders" coming in and "stealing" from the locals (never mind that they paid for it, to him they were stealing basically). He hated how they made the attractions spots crowded, littered at them, and especially how they'd drive 10+ mph below the speed limit and get in his way while he was trying to drive the "stocking truck" for work reasons.

Some say it's selfish that people who live in an area want to keep it all to themselves and not share, but no one wants a quiet place to become crowded, and if that means that 100 million people have to be denied enjoyment of an area for the sake of the few locals, SO BE IT. You stay the heck out of there.

Me: I'm understanding of TRANSPLANTS so long as they don't drive slow and/or drive up real estate prices, it's TOURISTS who get on my nerves. I lived in Tucson AZ previously, that's not exactly the same thing because that's a big place anyway but during the winter months yes traffic would increase very significantly and most of the people there who were from out-of-state would drive like they had all day. I'd spare no opportunity to let them know that I LIVED there and thus I was more important than they were as visitors and so stop driving so freaking slow.

When this happened, we would all collectively tailgate such people and give them the most ugly gestures when passing them, and frankly I think we were RIGHT to do that. You're in OUR house, you're in OUR town, you are a visitor whereas this is our home so therefore we count and you're irrelevant by comparison. Show respect. We are on our way to work and we don't want you in the freaking way driving like snails. They were technically referred to as "snowbirds" we would call them "slowbirds" we'd yell out the window "move out of the way SLOWbird!!!"

I understand the original poster's position. You find a secluded quiet place, you don't want other people ruining it for you. I totally agree. If that's "selfish," OH WELL.

Is this a parody or are you really like this in real life? You realize how it comes across right?

[boulder2015]

This thread is hilarious! How it sounds to an outsider:

"I believe in unlimited free enterprise and dont believe in zoning laws, rent control, or building codes!"

"Waahh... all these commiefornians are taking advantage of the free market and selling their condos for a lot, and buying up properties in MT! And developers are putting up ugly subdivisions like Southern Cal! Boohoo.. I cant afford it! America is a free country, and these liberals threaten this freedom, and shouldnt move here and express their views and opinions, or vote in ways i dont like. Because freedom!"

You cooked up this wild and wooly free market, conservatives, now you get to eat it.

[NDak15]

Originally Posted by boulder2015

Is this a parody or are you really like this in real life? You realize how it comes across right?

This is a very real mentality in Montana. It's the same throughout the Mountain West.

[Haakon]

Originally Posted by boulder2015

This thread is hilarious! How it sounds to an outsider:

"I believe in unlimited free enterprise and dont believe in zoning laws, rent control, or building codes!"

"Waahh... all these commiefornians are taking advantage of the free market and selling their condos for a lot, and buying up properties in MT! And developers are putting up ugly subdivisions like Southern Cal! Boohoo.. I cant afford it! America is a free country, and these liberals threaten this freedom, and shouldnt move here and express their views and opinions, or vote in ways i dont like. Because freedom!"

You cooked up this wild and wooly free market, conservatives, now you get to eat it.

You can always count on a liberal to be compassionate and caring about other people. Only someone from commiefornia would think building ugly subdivisions is something to celebrate.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by boulder2015

"I believe in unlimited free enterprise and dont believe in zoning laws, rent control, or building codes!"

California is a lot heavier on zoning laws, rent control, and building codes than Montana, and look what it's done for Oakland!!

[boulder2015]

Originally Posted by Haakon

You can always count on a liberal to be compassionate and caring about other people. Only someone from commiefornia would think building ugly subdivisions is something to celebrate.

1. I dont think they are something to celebrate. They are the product of mostly Republican owned developers who manipulate laws to make them easier to build. If people in places like montana make no effort to regulate development, then they can expect more of that kind.... Like in Boise. But they are caught in a trap of their own ideology.

2. I have plenty of compassion for the average folks of MT, conservative or liberal. I have less compassion for those who bray loudly about "outsiders ruining everything" while supporting pro-development, anti-regulation, politicians owned by developers who have created the conditions for "outsiders to ruin everything." It is illogical and an example of cognitvie dissonance. If you truly celebrate an unregulated free market that allows coastal folks to sell their homes for ridiculous prices and drive up prices in the inland parts of america, then you have to accept the consequences of that philosophy. It is part of being a grownup.

[boulder2015]

Originally Posted by Reziac

California is a lot heavier on zoning laws, rent control, and building codes than Montana, and look what it's done for Oakland!!

What? Turn it into the hottest re market in the nation?

[ericsvibe]

Originally Posted by boulder2015

What? Turn it into the hottest re market in the nation?

Being the hottest real estate market only helps real estate agents, and million dollar property developers, at the cost of the middle and lower middle class. The poor get help from the government to pay their rent, so they aren't hurt as bad.


No one in Montana wants what is happening in California, to happen here. I know in Helena, we have tried to stop the property developers. They just sue, and win. In fact, a court case was just decided where a developer wanted to build 165 homes on a 70 acre parcel. The county zoning commission denied the permit, the developer sued, and the court determined the county had no basis to deny the permit, and approved the development. Right now, the land is agricultural. So in the future, when I take the family to the lake, I will have to deal with the traffic created by this massive subdivision. Just so you know, this won't be entry level housing. The prices will start at $300,000.




A commenter above stated that he left the flathead valley in part because of his daughters not being able to find good jobs. As parents, my wife and I have worked very hard to make sure our children pick careers that are sustainable. There are very good jobs in Montana, that pay extremely well. You just have to have the right education to get them.

[mrwumpus]

Originally Posted by ericsvibe

No one in Montana wants what is happening in California, to happen here. I know in Helena, we have tried to stop the property developers. They just sue, and win. In fact, a court case was just decided where a developer wanted to build 165 homes on a 70 acre parcel.

I hope Montana wakes up and smells the coffee and figures out a way to regulate that level of development. It is possible to grow in a way that accommodates nature and humanity, but it's not as easy nor as profitable.

Problem is, money talks everywhere.

2+ years ago, when I lived in Southern CA, the city happily pocketed 2 million from a developer who took 195 acres of undeveloped land (some of it rare woodland with several endangered species on it), and are now building 930 homes on it along with 10,000sq-ft of commercial space.

A mile and a half from that they're building 4,000 homes (condos/town homes mostly) but no new schools.

Even in the $1 million home communities, things are packed so tight they only let you park on one side of the street (if at all).

These places are usually sold before they are built.