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Agreed. If the Joker was going to be in this with so little air time, then the previews shouldn't have made it look like he was. For example the first trailer of the Suicide Square that came out at Comic Con, was very effective because it showed the Joker like 3-5 seconds altogether in the 2:00+ minute trailer. When I saw that trailer, I was like "Oh cool the Joker will make an appearance" and I figured he would just be part of Harley's flashback story and that was it. The trailers after had so much Joker in them, that then I actually though he would be the main villain of the movie. That proved to not be right.
When the first Comic Con teaser-trailer was revealed, people loved it. Nobody cared that the Joker wouldn't be the main villain, even though it would reintroduce him.
Then people complained that they were afraid he would be the main villain ("Why does DC rely on the Joker so much?"). Then they complained again that he wouldn't be ("Why don't they just make Joker the real villain?"). I swear. Some people are never happy.
I'm glad Joker was a peripheral character in this film. From the get-go, we all knew it would really be Harley Quinn's moment, and per reports it looks like we have a slam dunk with Margot Robbie.
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Originally Posted by UrbanCheetah
The problem with the DCEU is it tries to grab too much at once. I actually would have preferred to see a Batman movie first with the Joker, before they made a Suicide Square movie. Within Batman's movie Harley's origin story can take place. Just like BvS too many characters, not enough development, and it's trying to grab too much at once. MCU can have too many characters in it's movies, because they have already done a good job of developing the characters in each one's standalone movie.
It's only been a decade since The Dark Knight. Nobody has forgotten Heath Ledger's now iconic performance. The Joker will be back soon enough. Let's see some other villains, for cryin' out loud!
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Originally Posted by UrbanCheetah
There are a few exceptions, but when 90% of the characters have already been developed in their own films, introducing new characters without too much development, like Spiderman and Black Panther in Civil War, actually works out.
Oh, this is perfect. Class, here we have a sterling example of bias. Spider-Man was wedged into Civil War with all the subtlety of a colonoscopy performed with a fire hose, and Marvel's instantly forgiven. All we got were a quick intro scene and a post-credits scene which were obviously filmed after principal photography was well underway. The Spider-Man at the airport's all CGI (and his being there really makes Tony Stark look like a tool).
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Originally Posted by UrbanCheetah
Regardless, they really shot themselves in the foot.
Not according to the 135 million weekend gross (267 million global) that's reported. And packed theaters.
If you are someone like me who has only heard of The Joker, then the Joker becomes your selling point to the movie like Star Lord, who was much less known than The Joker but more known than the other Guardians of The Galaxy was in that movie. But of course by then being MCU 10, not counting the Agents of SHIELD TV series keeping the brand upfront was in itself was a selling point.
Star-Lord wasn't known to anyone who's not a reader. None of those characters were.
And that Star-Lord in the film is about as authentic to the character as wisecrackin' Downey is to the Stark of the comics.
Or maybe because the word is out that it deserves a pass?
Word is out that it's a fun movie that people like. My friend emailed me to tell me she couldn't get tickets (except for the very front row, which is no fun) because everything was sold out.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
You wouldn't know that from the previews. If people are feeling mislead, it's only because the trailers mislead them. But Joker is THE villain of the DC universe. If he is screwed up already, then DC has a serious problem on their hands.
Ledger will probably always be my favorite (Jack's was an update of Romero), but Leto did solid. And they (not Ayer) cut a lot of his footage out. I'd have to see a director's cut to know whether or not that was the right thing to do. But I liked the emphasis on Harley.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
This is probably the most scathing commentary on it I've seen.
Marcus, ahem, I did post some other reviews. Read 'em?
Ledger will probably always be my favorite (Jack's was an update of Romero)
I loved Ledger's performance. Jack was playing Jack. But my dislike of that movie has more to do with Tim Burton than any of the actors.
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Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
Marcus, ahem, I did post some other reviews. Read 'em?
I did. And I'm sure I'll see this movie on DVD. But not the theater.
I remember much the same discussion happening around BvS, and now that I have finally seen it on DVD, I still don't like it. In fact, I kinda hated it. Hopefully Wonder Woman will change my mind, but so far the DCU onscreen strikes me as a train moving full steam ahead for a cliff. They have barely gotten started, and I'm already hoping for a do over.
Star-Lord wasn't known to anyone who's not a reader. None of those characters were.
And that Star-Lord in the film is about as authentic to the character as wisecrackin' Downey is to the Stark of the comics.
Being loyal to the comic is irrelevant. I am just saying that Star Lord had a bigger pull then the rest of the Guardians because he began as a black and white stand alone with good. even if limited to comics readers in the late 70s buzz. There was a limited oh yea him even if by the time he moved to the color Guardians it was a different character altogether a few more seats were filled in the audience that wouldn't have been.
That Marvel has successfully sold the MCU as its own with names from the older comic book titles is their strength. Canon is what is shown on screen, not what Stan Lee wrote in 1963.
When the first Comic Con teaser-trailer was revealed, people loved it. Nobody cared that the Joker wouldn't be the main villain, even though it would reintroduce him.
Then people complained that they were afraid he would be the main villain ("Why does DC rely on the Joker so much?"). Then they complain again that he wouldn't be ("Why don't they just make Joker the real villain?"). I swear. Some people are never happy.
I'm glad Joker was a peripheral character in this film. From the get-go, we all knew it would really be Harley Quinn's moment, and per reports it looks like we have a slam dunk with Margot Robbie.
It's only been a decade since The Dark Knight. Nobody has forgot Heath Ledger's now iconic performance. The Joker will be back soon enough. Let's see some other villains, for cryin' out loud!
Oh, this is perfect. Class, here we have a sterling example of bias. Spider-Man was wedged into Civil War with all the subtlety of a colonoscopy performed with a fire hose, and Marvel's instantly forgiven. All we got were a quick intro scene and a post-credits scene which were obviously filmed after principal photography was well underway. The Spider-Man at the airport's all CGI (and his being there really makes Tony Stark look like a tool).
Not according to the 135 million weekend gross (267 million global) that's reported. And packed theaters.
Well in regards to people complaining about the Joker everyone has different viewpoints. I can understand that some people wanted more, maybe some less. But that wasn't my point at all. My point is that they marketed the Joker's role to be something it was not. So whether you wanted more Joker or less Joker, the studio misrepresented based on the final product. As much as I love the Joker, I would have preferred very little to none of him, as I really wanted to explore the other characters more. Even though he was in it only for a little it still took away from character development of others.
I agree in regards to the Batman film having a new villain. I just meant I would have preferred seeing this incarnation of the Joker first in a standalone Batman film. I would actually love to see Black Mask (he's never been done) or Poision Ivy (B&R didn't do her justice). So I do agree it would be nice to see another villain in the first Batman standalone film, kind of like how Joker didn't appear until the sequel of Nolan's trilogy.
Spiderman being wedged in there though was well done. For most people that was one of the highlights for of the film, a very popular and positively reviewed film....The timing for it was right. You see with Spiderman being pushed in, you were fed good character development for the short time he was on. We go to see him and where he lives, why he is doing what he is doing, a good sense of his morals, and then we see him in action very faithful to his character. Marvel gave us a nice piece of meat to chew on and digest, while not being to heavy, but enough to satisfy.
You can't say that is the same for the Suicide Squad. For example one of the highlights, Harley, we didn't really get to learn that much about her personality or who she was before the Joker made her insane. Why did she fall in love with him? What were the things that the Joker did and said to manipulate her? All we got were flashbacks of her that were super fragmented, and didn't give us good insight to how she things, who she is, and what we can expect. With that being said she wasn't terrible in the movie, she was a highlight, but her story felt so chopped up with no rhyme or reason.
Sure it made a lot of money, so did BvS, but then a huge drop off happened. The same is anticipated for this film: Could Suicide Squad
I am sure a lot of it had to do it with pre-sale tickets too. A lot of people such as myself were excited to see this film and bought tickets ahead of time. If I would have seen the reviews beforehand I wouldn't have done that. Even my coworker who he and his girlfriend bout pre-sale ticketes told me if they knew based on the reviews they wouldn't have gone. While the general population's reaction isn't as negative as the critics, not that many people are praising the film either.
Sure it made a lot of money, so did BvS, but then a huge drop off happened. The same is anticipated for this film: Could Suicide Squad
I am sure a lot of it had to do it with pre-sale tickets too. A lot of people such as myself were excited to see this film and bought tickets ahead of time. If I would have seen the reviews beforehand I wouldn't have done that. Even my coworker who he and his girlfriend bout pre-sale ticketes told me if they knew based on the reviews they wouldn't have gone. While the general population's reaction isn't as negative as the critics, not that many people are praising the film either.
Exactly, DC will always be the red-headed step-child to the Marvel CU.
Exactly, DC will always be the red-headed step-child to the Marvel CU.
I think they just needed to have patience and when you think about it, MCU as it is now, with the actors, I only give it 5 more years and then it's time to stop, and start over. I mean how many movies is Robert Downey Jr. going to star in as Iron Man?! I say in 5 years is when MCU will begin to fade as the actors will get tired of being in them and it won't be as fresh or exciting anymore.
If DC was smart they would take this into consideration. If they would have started now on having standalone films, let's say a Batman and Wonder Woman movie next year and then Aquaman, The Flash, the in 2018 and then Justice League in something like 2019 or 2020, I think the outlook would be much more positive. But they tried to cram in too much just to stay on top of MCU and it's backfired. DCEU it would have been perfect if they swooped in when the MCU starts to fade, because the MCU will start to fade at some point, Not saying it will crash but it will eventually lose it's luster. It's in that moment that the DCEU needs to start releasing the BIG films that are teamups like Justice League and Suicide Squad.
As we've seen by reactions to Superman in Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, it's very relevant.
A lot of people still want the Blue Boy Scout. A lot of people still want him juggling tanks while flashing his Crest 3D Whitestrips-enhanced smile. The smile is very important. People want him to be a buffoon as Clark. They don't want to see shirtless Clark, muscles rippling, climbing into a bathtub with Lois for very wet shenanigans. It's not "1940s-1970s" enough.
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Originally Posted by Taiko
I am just saying that Star Lord had a bigger pull then the rest of the Guardians because he began as a black and white stand alone with good. even if limited to comics readers in the late 70s buzz. There was a limited oh yea him even if by the time he moved to the color Guardians it was a different character altogether a few more seats were filled in the audience that wouldn't have been.
Rocket Raccoon had more pull. Because he's a little upright raccoon. People didn't know who or what a "Star-Lord" was. And that's not Star-Lord in the movie. The original stories are awesome. The guy in that movie is just Chris Pratt. He was great in Parks & Recreation.
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Originally Posted by Taiko
That Marvel has successfully sold the MCU as its own with names from the older comic book titles is their strength. Canon is what is shown on screen, not what Stan Lee wrote in 1963.
You don't speak for everybody. Batman kills on film. Batman kills in Tim Burton's movie. "The Batplane has guns. Cool." Batman kills in BvS. "The Batwing has guns! The Batmobile has guns!" Suddenly, people are freaking out. "Where's Batman's no-kill code?!" All this hoopla about the Batman killing. No problem if any of the Avengers kills. They've offed scores of bad guys. Batman? No way. Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel was an unforgivable sin for some people.
So I guess there IS some overlap between comics-canon and film-canon, but people exercise their right to apply it selectively.
I think they just needed to have patience and when you think about it, MCU as it is now, with the actors, I only give it 5 more years and then it's time to stop, and start over. I mean how many movies is Robert Downey Jr. going to star in as Iron Man?! I say in 5 years is when MCU will begin to fade as the actors will get tired of being in them and it won't be as fresh or exciting anymore.
That's just what MCU is planning, though. There won't be any more specific movies for the Avengers (except maybe Black Widow)--they are being gracefully retired over the course of another two movies or so, and the next cycle of new characters is beginning over that same course of transitional movies.
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If DC was smart they would take this into consideration. If they would have started now on having standalone films, let's say a Batman and Wonder Woman movie next year and then Aquaman, The Flash, the in 2018 and then Justice League in something like 2019 or 2020, I think the outlook would be much more positive. But they tried to cram in too much just to stay on top of MCU and it's backfired. DCEU it would have been perfect if they swooped in when the MCU starts to fade, because the MCU will start to fade at some point, Not saying it will crash but it will eventually lose it's luster. It's in that moment that the DCEU needs to start releasing the BIG films that are teamups like Justice League and Suicide Squad.
DCEU is started late on power curve on a program that just can't be short-cut. It's like one man planting an apple tree in 2008 and harvesting apples in 1216, and another guy planting an apple tree in 2013...also expecting a harvest in 2016. Sorry, it doesn't work that way--apple trees take a certain length of time to mature.
The same seems to be true of superhero movie universes...it doesn't appear the process can be successfully rushed. The DCEU producers should have been satisfied with a program that would have started with Superman in 2013 and peaked with Justice League in about 2020.
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