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We can speculate all we want on individual towns but the reality is that with all of the closed stores there is not just room for but a need for another chain. Ahold should be moving in with Giant of Landover, but they aren't because they misjudged the area & failed twice. Instead, they are looking at the Harris Teeter chain. They don't understand the similarity between Delaware & South Jersey.
The best hope that I can see, at this point, is that Kroger swoops in & either buys the chain or if it gets sold to a holding company, buys the northern part of the chain to give them a link from Richmond to the Philadelphia/South Jersey area.
Cherry Hill is more than an individual town for South Jersey.
The problem with South Jersey is:
-It's part of the Philly metro, but the SE PA and Delaware side of the metro area has sufficient grocer competition, with Giant-PA (for PA) or Giant-MD and Safeway (for DE) competing.
-Most of it is lower to middle class. It's not like the DC corridor, or even like West Chester-Malvern-Collegeville. 15 miles around Cherry Hill is where most of the retail is located, and the favored area of the region. No chain will start at looking at sites in Pitman, Stratford and Willingboro, and then build a SJ strategy around it.
-Liquor licenses are difficult. NJ state law only permits a company 2 per state as well.
Ahold had little economies of scale in South Jersey with Stop&Shop, and it was hammered with Wegmans opening up shop in CH and Mt.Laurel. Plus it was unionized. It probably didn't help that besides it's in store brands, it was just an overpriced ShopRite to some.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avg12
Cherry Hill is more than an individual town for South Jersey.
The problem with South Jersey is:
-It's part of the Philly metro, but the SE PA and Delaware side of the metro area has sufficient competition, with Giant-PA (for PA) or Giant-MD/Safeway (for DE) competing.
-Most of it is lower to middle class. It's not like the DC corridor, or even like West Chester-Malvern-Collegeville. 15 miles around Cherry Hill is pretty different though and essential, however, as it's where most of the retail is located. No chain will start at looking at sites in Pitman, Stratford and Willingboro, and then build a SJ strategy around it.
-Liquor licenses are difficult. NJ state law only permits a company 2 per state as well.
Ahold had little economies of scale in South Jersey with Stop&Shop, and it was hammered with Wegmans opening up shop in CH and Mt.Laurel. Plus it was unionized. It probably didn't help that besides it's in store brands, it was just an overpriced ShopRite to some.
Historically, non-union supermarkets have failed in the Philadelphia market.
I was still visiting someone in the Baltimore market when the Super G chain opened. Giant of Landover was competitive with Pathmark, price-wise. Super G was considerably more expensive. Super G was replaced with Stop & Shop, which was at least as expensive as Super G, if not higher in price. It was a bad move & both failed. Super G was replaced in Delaware with Giant of Landover, which did well.
Ahold has seriously misjudged South Jersey.
While there is money in Cherry Hill, there are working-class neighborhoods as well. It's mixed income in both the east side & the west side. This is why I said that Whole Foods at Ellisburg solves nothing. It might pull enough people from Moorestown & Haddonfield, but it will not be supported solely by Cherry Hill residents. Kingsway Village is working class & there is another working class neighborhood across Kings Highway, between Kingsway Village & the south side of Erlton. The north side of Erlton is not big money, either. Bowood & Kenwood, adjacent to Barclay are not wealthy people, either. Many of the people in those neighborhoods could just as easily be in Maple Shade. Those are most of the people closest to Ellisburg Shopping Center. That's why there's been a Dollar Tree there for ages. Ellisburg had a laundromat until Genuardi's took it over.
Historically, non-union supermarkets have failed in the Philadelphia market.
Giant-PA hasn't failed though and just grew stronger. And there is Target, Wal-Mart, Wegmans and Whole Foods, all which have taken some market-share from regular unionized grocers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295
I was still visiting someone in the Baltimore market when the Super G chain opened. Giant of Landover was competitive with Pathmark, price-wise. Super G was considerably more expensive. Super G was replaced with Stop & Shop, which was at least as expensive as Super G, if not higher in price. It was a bad move & both failed. Super G was replaced in Delaware with Giant of Landover, which did well.
Ahold has seriously misjudged South Jersey.
It had higher operating costs in Southern NJ, esp. with food from warehouse (Landover) to stores in SJ, being 2 1/2 hours away. What happens in Baltimore/DC won't have benefit of spilling into Southern NJ atleast easily. Maybe for Delaware but apparently not in SJ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295
While there is money in Cherry Hill, there are working-class neighborhoods as well. It's mixed income in both the east side & the west side. This is why I said that Whole Foods at Ellisburg solves nothing. It might pull enough people from Moorestown & Haddonfield, but it will not be supported solely by Cherry Hill residents. Kingsway Village is working class & there is another working class neighborhood across Kings Highway, between Kingsway Village & the south side of Erlton. The north side of Erlton is not big money, either. Bowood & Kenwood, adjacent to Barclay are not wealthy people, either. Many of the people in those neighborhoods could just as easily be in Maple Shade. Those are most of the people closest to Ellisburg Shopping Center. That's why there's been a Dollar Tree there for ages. Ellisburg had a laundromat until Genuardi's took it over.
Whole Foods has items that are affordable. Also, I've seen Whole Foods go into mixed areas that say another high end chain wouldn't go into at all. One location, the one in S.Loop Chicago, is in a mall with off-price Marshall's and DSW. It's not in a touristy area of Chicago either, or very accessible via the subway (within 0.5 miles or less) either, and it has more of the crowd that frequents the nearby Target.
While I agree with what Southbound is saying in terms of income levels and distributions, there is one aspect to Whole Foods that makes it a little more marketable to people across the income scale. Many people have medical issues now that require eating a specific diet that requires avoiding certain ingredients and additives whether it is Celiac's Disease, Autism, ADD/ADHD, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, etc. they all require avoiding things like gluten, casein, food dyes, certain preservatives, etc. These types of illnesses and diagnoses are becoming more and more common, especially among children.
I know at least five different people that are on some sort of restrictive diet: one for Celiacs, one for IBS, one for autism and two for ADHD. Two of those people would be considered "lower middle class" and not what is generally conceived of as being the target Whole Foods demographic, yet they shop there religiously. Some of them even drive from as far away as southern Gloucester County and Cumberland County to shop at Whole Foods.
Local supermarkets, in particular Wegman's, but also Acme to an extent, try to offer options for people on these types of diets, but the selection is far more limited and the cost just the same or even higher. So, in that way, while Whole Foods obviously needs a regular client base that shops there regardless and is willing to pay the prices, to many people Whole Foods is treated like a destination store because it is the only place they can get the products they need. Since these types of diseases and the diets that go along with them are increasinly prevalent and effect people of all incomes and backgrounds it would be hard for Whole Foods to not be succesful.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
While I agree with what Southbound is saying in terms of income levels and distributions, there is one aspect to Whole Foods that makes it a little more marketable to people across the income scale. Many people have medical issues now that require eating a specific diet that requires avoiding certain ingredients and additives whether it is Celiac's Disease, Autism, ADD/ADHD, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, etc. they all require avoiding things like gluten, casein, food dyes, certain preservatives, etc. These types of illnesses and diagnoses are becoming more and more common, especially among children.
I know at least five different people that are on some sort of restrictive diet: one for Celiacs, one for IBS, one for autism and two for ADHD. Two of those people would be considered "lower middle class" and not what is generally conceived of as being the target Whole Foods demographic, yet they shop there religiously. Some of them even drive from as far away as southern Gloucester County and Cumberland County to shop at Whole Foods.
Local supermarkets, in particular Wegman's, but also Acme to an extent, try to offer options for people on these types of diets, but the selection is far more limited and the cost just the same or even higher. So, in that way, while Whole Foods obviously needs a regular client base that shops there regardless and is willing to pay the prices, to many people Whole Foods is treated like a destination store because it is the only place they can get the products they need. Since these types of diseases and the diets that go along with them are increasinly prevalent and effect people of all incomes and backgrounds it would be hard for Whole Foods to not be succesful.
Interesting concept. I wouldn't have thought of the medical diets. The chain that I go to most frequently (if I'm not going to Aldi) has shelf labels designating gluten-free, etc. for the most common medical diets.
Interesting concept. I wouldn't have thought of the medical diets. The chain that I go to most frequently (if I'm not going to Aldi) has shelf labels designating gluten-free, etc. for the most common medical diets.
I became acutely aware of it (or paid attention) when my mother-in-law was diagnosed with Celiacs a couple years ago. Now thinking about it there are two people I didn't add to the list I know: one more Celiacs (my cousins daughter) and one other that I'm not 100% sure on the medical problem (my wifes cousins daughter); neither we see very often, but both are on restrictive diets.
What I learned through my mother-in-law is that simply being "gluten free" (or "X" free) does not make a product acceptable for someone with Celiacs or another disease. She has bought "gluten free" products only to have them make her horribly sick and then a careful reading of the ingredients turns up that there is something in there she couldn't have or that the product is made in a plant that also makes products that contain gluten. On top of that, the local stores like Acme and Wegmans may only carry one or two brands of certain products. Going into a regular supermarket for her, even one that has a "gluten free" section is like going into a store and there is only one kind of pasta, one kind of sauce, one brand of cookies, one kind of flour, etc. It's nice to have if you need something quick, but nowhere near enough to provide any kind of variety. The employees also tend to have no idea about the various restrictions and reasons why, so are useless when it comes to answering questions.
Walk into Whole Foods though and you get a massive variety of products that are clearly and most importantly accurately labelled as to what is in them and whether or not they are acceptable. You also get employees that are actually aware of the various issues and restrictions and can help you find products. When my MIL first went to Whole Foods (which she had shopped at occasionally before then) following her diagnosis, they had someone walk around the store with her and help her shop as well as providing her with piles of free products to try so she could determine what she liked. They literally gave her around $150 worth of free products. Now that she shops there regularly she will often get free samples of new products that are OK for her that just came out and the stores hold classes on cooking, meal planning and product selection. These kinds of things are immensely important for people with these diets. The free products are also a major benefit. A bag of 12 Celiac acceptable cookies can sometimes run upwards of $10. That's a lot of money to spend just to see whether or not you like them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
I became acutely aware of it (or paid attention) when my mother-in-law was diagnosed with Celiacs a couple years ago. Now thinking about it there are two people I didn't add to the list I know: one more Celiacs (my cousins daughter) and one other that I'm not 100% sure on the medical problem (my wifes cousins daughter); neither we see very often, but both are on restrictive diets.
What I learned through my mother-in-law is that simply being "gluten free" (or "X" free) does not make a product acceptable for someone with Celiacs or another disease. She has bought "gluten free" products only to have them make her horribly sick and then a careful reading of the ingredients turns up that there is something in there she couldn't have or that the product is made in a plant that also makes products that contain gluten. On top of that, the local stores like Acme and Wegmans may only carry one or two brands of certain products. Going into a regular supermarket for her, even one that has a "gluten free" section is like going into a store and there is only one kind of pasta, one kind of sauce, one brand of cookies, one kind of flour, etc. It's nice to have if you need something quick, but nowhere near enough to provide any kind of variety. The employees also tend to have no idea about the various restrictions and reasons why, so are useless when it comes to answering questions.
Walk into Whole Foods though and you get a massive variety of products that are clearly and most importantly accurately labelled as to what is in them and whether or not they are acceptable. You also get employees that are actually aware of the various issues and restrictions and can help you find products. When my MIL first went to Whole Foods (which she had shopped at occasionally before then) following her diagnosis, they had someone walk around the store with her and help her shop as well as providing her with piles of free products to try so she could determine what she liked. They literally gave her around $150 worth of free products. Now that she shops there regularly she will often get free samples of new products that are OK for her that just came out and the stores hold classes on cooking, meal planning and product selection. These kinds of things are immensely important for people with these diets. The free products are also a major benefit. A bag of 12 Celiac acceptable cookies can sometimes run upwards of $10. That's a lot of money to spend just to see whether or not you like them.
I went to the Whole Foods in Marlton the 2nd day that it was open. The prices were breath-taking & not a soul working there paid me one second of attention. I left with nothing & went down the road to Trader Joe's & bought items. I was not the least bit impressed & have run into many people who had the same experience with Whole Foods.
Having shopped for my mother through 2 hideous medical diets & having food allergies myself, I always read labels. I just assumed that most people did as well.
I went to the Whole Foods in Marlton the 2nd day that it was open. The prices were breath-taking & not a soul working there paid me one second of attention. I left with nothing & went down the road to Trader Joe's & bought items. I was not the least bit impressed & have run into many people who had the same experience with Whole Foods.
Having shopped for my mother through 2 hideous medical diets & having food allergies myself, I always read labels. I just assumed that most people did as well.
Our experience at Whole Foods has been relatively positive. Maybe it's just changes they've made overtime to provide better service. I've honestly never been in the store when someone didn't try to help me. You are very correct though that the prices can be breathtaking.
As for the label reading, she of course reads all of the labels. Most of the issues she had when it came to food was in the beginning when she was still learning exactly what she could and couldn't have (there is a massive list of common additives and things that can be in otherwise "gluten free" foods that people with Celiacs can't have). Many assume that Celiacs = no gluten, but it's more complex then that.
The labelling guidelines are also not nearly as tightly controlled on those products and are largely voluntary. A product can be labelled by the manufacturer as being "gluten free" but they may produce it in the same facility as or even on the same machinery as products that contain gluten and other additives/ingredients that are bad for someone with Celiacs (and stating such is not legally required on the labels). One of the common "gluten free" pasta brands sold at Wegmans is produced in the same facility as regular pasta. To some who have less advanced Celiacs or a mild gluten sensitivity, those trace amounts don't bother them, but people with more advanced Celiacs or heightened sensitivity like my MIL can still get very sick from even the trace amounts. What that means is, even if you read the label, you may not know whether or not a certain product will make you sick.
That's one of the most compelling reasons for those folks with these issues to go to Whole Foods, because they have stricter labelling guidelines for the products they sell and mark them far more clearly.
I went to the Whole Foods in Marlton the 2nd day that it was open. The prices were breath-taking & not a soul working there paid me one second of attention. I left with nothing & went down the road to Trader Joe's & bought items. I was not the least bit impressed & have run into many people who had the same experience with Whole Foods.
Having shopped for my mother through 2 hideous medical diets & having food allergies myself, I always read labels. I just assumed that most people did as well.
You were a brave woman to go there opening week; I wouldn't have done it. Stores should be ready for an opening but more often than not, chaos reigns.
I shop at a Whole Foods once in a while. I'm usually looking for a particular item which I can't find elsewhere. Since I don't shop there often, I walk every aisle and usually find a few things which I didn't know that I needed.
The Whole Foods in Marlton was a Fresh Fields. Was the "opening week" when it changed names, or the opening week of Fresh Fields? Did they close the store for a day or two during the conversion? I don't remember or recall so.
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