Use subway or avoid, that tis the question (New York, York: crimes, felony)
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The only time I've been to NYC was in Apr 2019 for about a week, and we stayed in Long Island City to save a lot of money. Took 1 of 3 nearby trains every day into Manhattan and back, and a few trains within Manhattan. Brought my wife and kids who were ages 10 & 7 at the time. It was a great trip and we didn't have any problems. We did all the stereotypical tourist stuff, the stations were all clean (kids were bummed they didn't see a single rat), and prob 90% of riders were commuters. As a family we've used the streetcars in New Orleans, and used the subway system in Brussels Belgium and found those to be much rougher than NYC's... but we didn't have any problems on those either.
I'd like to go back to NYC soon and of course safety is an issue in the back of my mind. It's mainly because some people who have never been there parrot tabloid news. I don't doubt the increase in crime is true but I don't hear many details about it, realizing "NYC" is huge and there are many parts you shouldn't go to anyway. I'll be following this thread.
We live in NJ now but grew up in the 70s and lived in NYC most of our lives. My husband commutes there every day. He would definitely tell you to avoid the subway, and not because of anything he's seen on the news. In fact, none of the crazy, dangerous, disgusting things anyone I know has seen or experienced has been on the news so they are definitely not blowing anything out of proportion. My sister who still lives in Manhattan is "taking a break" from the subway because of her last bad experience. I haven't taken my son there in about a year and we have gone at least once a month his whole life.
What you call overblowing and sensationalizing things is what I call accurate, in-depth reporting and while the subway may statistically still be safe, the people that have been shoved, killed, assaulted and so on don't care about stats. It isn't just that people have cell phones. More of these crimes are caught on camera... The saying "out of sight out of mind" is very relevant. If you're a female and you see images of women being brutally beaten in the subway, which has been shown in the media recently, that isn't overblowing anything. It's showing exactly what happened and those visual images stay with some people because they realize it could be them. It's just the reality of the situation.
I'm a man and I too do not feel safe taking the subway these days. I dom't care what the stats say. I care about what I SEE and experience and the idea of an increase in the mentally ill on the subways, which are the very people that have caused an increase in certain crimes is real. Certain subway crimes are up for sure... Platform pushing, shooting, stabbings... The most violent crimes... What's concerning for me more than anything is the idea of being stuck in a subway car with some mentally ill person that can fly off the handle at any given time. Saying that overall subway crime is low does not change that situation for riders. The solution should be to have it addressed to increase the perception that the subway is safe. Until that is done, I can see a number of people avoiding it.
I think you should be able to understand that different people have different thresholds for when they feel something is threatening or dangerous or risky. It may be to jjbradley that it seems overblown, while you, even prior to the pandemic and changes since, felt there was not enough coverage about crime in the subway. For me, I'm personally not that worried and use the subway as the stats aren't that different from before and I have yet to see anything in the subway that greatly worries me so I can see where jjbradley's coming from with the idea that the increased media coverage seems disproportionate to the actual change in the crime rate--though of course that doesn't mean I don't think there should be institutionalization for the mentally ill, better operations, and better service and cleanup. However, this doesn't mean that I think you're wrong as I understand you may have a very different threshold for what feels too sketchy for you.
OP also should realize that pre-pandemic, so at least four years or so ago and likely earlier, pierrepont, the poster quoted above was already against using the subway and 2019 ridership, total crime and crime rates in the subway were about the same then as six years ago in 2016/2017, so OP should understand that that essentially already outside of the thresholds for pierrepont.
I think you should be able to understand that different people have different thresholds for when they feel something is threatening or dangerous or risky. It may be to jjbradley that it seems overblown, while you, even prior to the pandemic and changes since, felt there was not enough coverage about crime in the subway. For me, I'm personally not that worried and use the subway as the stats aren't that different from before and I have yet to see anything in the subway that greatly worries me so I can see where jjbradley's coming from with the idea that the increased media coverage seems disproportionate to the actual change in the crime rate--though of course that doesn't mean I don't think there should be institutionalization for the mentally ill, better operations, and better service and cleanup. However, this doesn't mean that I think you're wrong as I understand you may have a very different threshold for what feels too sketchy for you.
OP also should realize that pre-pandemic, so at least four years or so ago and likely earlier, pierrepont, the poster quoted above was already against using the subway and 2019 ridership, total crime and crime rates in the subway were about the same then as six years ago in 2016/2017, so OP should understand that that essentially already outside of the thresholds for pierrepont.
Yeah because at that time I already saw certain seediness either on the subway or the platforms that was concerning. Personally too many people are using the subway for everything but traveling from point A to point B.
My use or not of the subway has nothing to do with what the media says though. It's based on what I have experienced. I just don't feel the need to deal with mentally disturbed individuals, pan handling and everything else that goes on underground that has always existed in some fashion, but people have more flexibility now. I can drive now and prefer to do that over taking any subway.
so you're saying Don't bother being aware of your surroundings because you're screwed anyway?
Interesting POV!
I don't see where I said that at all. By all means, be aware, but also understand that knowing something is about to happen isn't going to stop it from happening. It just gives you a chance to brace yourself to be ready to fight back.
Yeah because at that time I already saw certain seediness either on the subway or the platforms that was concerning. Personally too many people are using the subway for everything but traveling from point A to point B.
My use or not of the subway has nothing to do with what the media says though. It's based on what I have experienced. I just don't feel the need to deal with mentally disturbed individuals, pan handling and everything else that goes on underground that has always existed in some fashion, but people have more flexibility now. I can drive now and prefer to do that over taking any subway.
I understand it's based on what you experienced. As is jjbradley's take on it, as is mine. My guess is that I ride the subway a lot more than you do now as well as in the last several years given your opinions on riding the subway predates the pandemic quite a bit, but this doesn't invalidate the feeling you have because it's reasonable to understand that people have different thresholds and conditions for when they feel safe or in danger though OP did ask about opinions from people who ride every day. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that the OP might also again have a different threshold as well and they had not referenced the subway during their trip six years ago as particularly harrowing, so that's why I think what jjbradley had stated, and my viewpoint, might be closer to what the OP is asking.
I understand it's based on what you experienced. As is jjbradley's take on it, as is mine. My guess is that I ride the subway a lot more than you do now as well as in the last several years given your opinions on riding the subway predates the pandemic quite a bit, but this doesn't invalidate the feeling you have because it's reasonable to understand that people have different thresholds and conditions for when they feel safe or in danger though OP did ask about opinions from people who ride every day. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that the OP might also again have a different threshold as well and they had not referenced the subway during their trip six years ago as particularly harrowing, so that's why I think what jjbradley had stated, and my viewpoint, might be closer to what the OP is asking.
That's important because jj made the argument that the media was sensationalizing things and that was what was impacting people not riding.
Well he has essentially admitted that we have a serious increase in the number of mentally ill people riding and while I have never been attacked, I have experienced a number of people that were clearly unstable acting irrationally to the point that I moved to another car. Before if you secured your personal belongings, you were generally fine. What concerns me is the amount of random attacks lately when people have simply been going about their business and that can happen to even those who as you say "have a high threshold". In other words, this is NYC. I have seen people **** in the subway, shoot up on platforms, smoke in the train, etc. While those things are not great to look at, they didn't make me feel unsafe. Being locked up in a subway car with doors that can't be opened in the event of an emergency similar to what happened with the crazy guy on the N? train is what gives me pause. Your threshold won't matter in such instances, so it comes down to luck, and quite frankly my thinking is why should I put myself in such a situation and have to depend on "my luck"? I think that given the amount of crazies I've encountered on the subway over the years that I've been very lucky thus far, but luck sooner or later luck runs out, especially when you keep encountering such crazed individuals on the subway and can't run to another car either because it's locked or blocked, so while I commend your threshold for encountering such situations, I say better you than me.
I imagine that the OP will think I'm only visiting so it should be fine, and generally speaking, that's true. I just believe that we've reached the tipping point in the amount of crazies in the subway. The people I moved away from did not always look homeless and seemed to appear to be functioning normally, until I realized that they were having a conversation with themselves for a good 10 minutes and did not have a headset or earpiece on. In some cases you have to contend with multiple crazies in the same car, seemingly almost every ride, some like the guy I mentioned, and others much more visual in their erratic behavior, not to mention filthy in a COVID environment. A little too much for me. Maybe some lines are better than others, as I know some lines in Queens like the E are known for having high homeless populations.
You keep using the term "high threshold". What exactly would get you to not use the subway? Getting attacked? It seems like everything I've mentioned above you give off the impression is somehow normal. I recall a time when such things were not "normal" riding the subway. Showtime and people selling things were the worst things you dealt with.
Last edited by pierrepont7731; 11-28-2022 at 05:34 AM..
That's important because jj made the argument that the media was sensationalizing things and that was what was impacting people not riding.
Well he has essentially admitted that we have a serious increase in the number of mentally ill people riding and while I have never been attacked, I have experienced a number of people that were clearly unstable acting irrationally to the point that I moved to another car. Before if you secured your personal belongings, you were generally fine. What concerns me is the amount of random attacks lately when people have simply been going about their business and that can happen to even those who as you say "have a high threshold". In other words, this is NYC. I have seen people **** in the subway, shoot up on platforms, smoke in the train, etc. While those things are not great to look at, they didn't make me feel unsafe. Being locked up in a subway car with doors that can't be opened in the event of an emergency similar to what happened with the crazy guy on the N? train is what gives me pause. Your threshold won't matter in such instances, so it comes down to luck, and quite frankly my thinking is why should I put myself in such a situation and have to depend on "my luck"? I think that given the amount of crazies I've encountered on the subway over the years that I've been very lucky thus far, but luck sooner or later luck runs out, especially when you keep encountering such crazed individuals on the subway and can't run to another car either because it's locked or blocked, so while I commend your threshold for encountering such situations, I say better you than me.
I imagine that the OP will think I'm only visiting so it should be fine, and generally speaking, that's true. I just believe that we've reached the tipping point in the amount of crazies in the subway. The people I moved away from did not always look homeless and seemed to appear to be functioning normally, until I realized that they were having a conversation with themselves for a good 10 minutes and did not have a headset or earpiece on. In some cases you have to contend with multiple crazies in the same car, seemingly almost every ride, some like the guy I mentioned, and others much more visual in their erratic behavior, not to mention filthy in a COVID environment. A little too much for me. Maybe some lines are better than others, as I know some lines in Queens like the E are known for having high homeless populations.
You keep using the term "high threshold". What exactly would get you to not use the subway? Getting attacked? It seems like everything I've mentioned above you give off the impression is somehow normal. I recall a time when such things were not "normal" riding the subway. Showtime and people selling things were the worst things you dealt with.
Right, I understand why it doesn't strike you as sensationalization because you have a very different concept of when it becomes intolerable as you already felt it was the case prior to the current spike and have felt that way for years. However, the OP had mentioned coming to NYC a few years ago and did not already feel that was the case at that time and now wonders if it's like the Thunderdome. The spike in crime rate if it's already past where you're comfortable riding the subway years ago then obviously means it's already beyond the pale for you so certainly the current spike is not going to make riding the subway more tolerable for you. Does that make sense?
jjbradley and myself still ride the subway and the stats do show an uptick in crime rate, because even as total crime is lower than before, the denominator to get a rate which would be the ridership, has gone done even further, hence higher crime rate. With that, while there is some difference in both what we see and in the stats, it's not something that I'd at least consider equivalent to the subway being anything close to calling it the Thunderdome. The greater and more strident media coverage of it also does not seem proportional to the actual increase in crime rate, but it's not like how people feel things is going or media coverage is going to be directly proportional to the actual crime rate.
I think it makes sense to talk about things generally because crime in NYC subway or in the city in general has always been present, but what is enough to make it so someone does not ride the subway is going to change based on personal experiences. Even if the crime rate had been at what it was in the past when the OP visited, there are going to be people who had bad personal experiences or simply a bad impression of the subway system to the point where they would not ride it--the case in point would include you, right?
And yea, I do think that if someone, including myself, were to personally been attacked, then that would change their views on it, because again, there is such a thing as personal thresholds and differing tolerances for when it becomes not worth it. Given that the crime rate per ridership still means that objectively the vast majority of rides do not result in violent crime incidents, then there's going to be a spread of people with differing experiences of whether or not they feel riding the subway is fine. You're at least now touching on that a bit with saying "I imagine that the OP will think I'm only visiting so it should be fine, and generally speaking, that's true."
I'll caveat this again though that I do think there needs to be institutionalization because as it stands now, it does not do anyone any favors including the mentally ill, to have them in the system now or in years past when the crime rate was somewhat lower, even though most rides now and in the past end up without any crime incidents. Though I think you also have mentioned you have seen crazy things on the subway in the past and that would contradict the worse that happened in the past was showtime and people selling things. That's certainly not my experience and recollection of pre-pandemic rides where I've seen things that are more than just that. Does it make the subway unusable to me? No, not at the current moment and as they are now in the stats, seemingly unlikely to change for me anytime soon.
I also think you're right that which lines and stations as well as probably time of day make a difference whether in crime rate or number of homeless. That would make some sense and pre-pandemic that did bear itself in the stats. Still, if the OP did ride the subway five years ago and was more or less fine with it, then the bump in crime rate that resulted from slightly lower number of crimes but notably lower ridership by about a third, would seem somewhat unlikely to be particularly noticeable especially since the OP is unlikely to be in sketchier parts of the city as a tourist.
I live on Staten Island where of course we have no subway service. I take the soft-seat coach-style express bus into Manhattan, it's worth the $6.75 fare for it's safety and comfort. But sometimes I have to go somewhere in Manhattan where the subway is the the 2nd leg of my trip. Not any more. I take the express bus into Manhattan, then transfer to a Manhattan local bus to complete my trip, even if it adds a considerable amount of time to my trip.
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