"I'm cutting you toxic people out of my life!" - can this be a copout? (talks, senior)

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird

BPD stands for Borderline personality disorder, not bi-polar.

You're absolutely right and thanks for pointing that out. My brother has been diagnosed with both. My mother only with bipolar disorder, to clarify.

I do think my brother's diagnosis, which has changed over the years, was probably a bit too harsh on the front end.

Sorry for the confusion - I was being sloppy and confused my acronyms!

[KathrynAragon]

By the way, just to clarify -

I'm sick with the most awful, and very unattractive cold. I am at home, isolating myself, as much for others as for myself. I am pretty sure that people out in public would be alarmed by one of my coughing/sneezing fits, which reduce me to a quivering mass of tears and slobber and snot without warning several times a day!

That's why I'm able to spend so much time responding to this thread in such detail. Well, that and the two other facts:

1. I type really fast, and

2. I am thinking through a lot of this sort of thing because I am teaching a class on the topic of boundaries in a few weeks, and I'm getting my resources and materials together, as well as asking for feedback from a range of perspectives so that hopefully the classes will be beneficial to those attending. Every time I teach these classes, I learn more so I do appreciate the interaction and feedback whether people agree with me or not.

In the end, I will use the provided curriculum and teach the class within the parameters of the program but so far I agree entirely with the program so I don't anticipate a problem. I'm really looking forward to it!

[Ticatica]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

You're right in the sense that we can't force others to change. We aren't responsible for anyone's behavior but our own.

But - when we change our behavior or responses or attitude, the dynamics of a relationship are often changed. Not always, but often. If that wasn't the case, there'd be no books on management, or parenting, or enabling. There'd be no point in ever altering our management style, or parenting style with the goal being better behavior from the other person. The same philosophies can also be applied to any number of relationships in our lives, not just ones in which we are expected to "lead."

Management techniques are not to be applied to interactions with abusers. De framing once again.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

My kids are grown (and are all doing GREAT as adults, just so you know). Three of the four are happily married to spouses that are truly exemplary people - which is fitting, since my kids are exemplary people as well! (The youngest is not yet married.) I did not ever - EVER - subject them to any sort of physical or emotional abuse from my mother. I divorced their father when they were 9,7,5 and 3 so I did remove them from an abusive situation earlier rather than later in their childhood. Yes, I was absolutely wrong to marry their father and even more wrong to tolerate one minute of his sporadic abuse and I am not justifying that in any way, but I have not perpetrated that abuse by maintaining a controlled relationship with my parents.

You chose to recount how you've done damage to them that you regret. You can't play it differently now as if mentioning them is off topic and insinuate it's a low blow. You spoke of their damage and wanted us to think on it so they can't be perfect....can they?
You have not controlled every minute of interaction between them and your mother because that's simply impossible. When an unmedicated person is in a manic phase and behaves inappropriately it is disturbing. It certainly disturbed you enough to stop interacting for over a year. Once again, can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Honestly - no offense, but I can hardly believe that a "trained counselor for dually diagnosed mental patients" can say this with sincerity. By your own admission, approximately 50 percent of those with bipolar disorder do NOT experience delusions or hallucinations. You are insinuating that ALL mentally ill (or the vast majority of the mentally ill) who are not medicated are literally dangerous to others and "should be avoided for everyone's safety." This is simply not true and is a sad perpetration of a long standing myth. Most mentally ill people are not a danger to others. Some are - most aren't. And by the way, just how do you recommend "avoiding them" when they are family members?

Don't worry you are too uniformed to offend me. I did not insinuate, I stated baldly that their behavior can and does escalate. All the more reason to keep your distance until they make the commitment to taking their meds and therapy.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

My mother's sister is also bipolar - and schizophrenic. She refuses to take meds. The courts have assigned her daughter (my cousin) as her guardian and they live together. My aunt is eccentric. She is delusional at times. She has weird religious beliefs. But she is also pleasant to be around most of the time. She is courteous. She takes care of herself pretty independently (she can cook, clean, and keep herself and her personal space tidy). She is incompetent to live alone - but she is not a danger to anyone.

You can't have it both ways. She's not taking care of herself independently isincethe court has forced her to be in the care of another. And just because she's had no violent episodes you are aware of doesn't mean she can't. It also doesn't mean she can't start a fire in the living room because her delusion told her she's camping in the cold.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

I too have some professional counseling training - with the mentally ill as well as with family members, and disadvantaged women. In fact, years ago I worked as an art therapist for the criminally insane in a maximum security unit. Most of the inmates/patients there, by the way, were not there because they were ever a danger to ANYONE. Most of them were there because they had committed some petty crime (vagrancy, possession of drug paraphernalia, that sort of thing) and when they were arrested it became evident that they were mentally ill, so they were assigned to this unit rather than to a regular prison unit - in order to get the treatment they needed.

It is a MYTH - and a sad one at that - that most mentally ill people are dangerous to others. Sure, some of them are, but most of them are not.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

My mother's mental illness doesn't manifest in auditory or visual delusions. She does not "hear voices" or "see things that aren't there" or anything like that. Her bipolar disorder is not complicated by schizophrenia or delusions. She is simply manic at times - unable to sleep, nervous, overly loud and socially inappropriate, fixated on arguments or ideas or projects, etc - and then depressed at times - sleeping for hours or days, loss of appetite, distraught over small inconsequential things, overly fixated on "ailments" that are psychological and a part of the depression rather than an actual illness.
So nyahhh, I don't worry about her thinking the Stasi told her to bug my house or kill me in the middle of the night.

Delusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary That's it. She gets a thought and for weeks or months and that thought that is not true is true for her. You can hope nothing catastrophic blossoms from it, but you are delusional if you think you can predict what will stick in her diseased mind tomorrow. it's simply fantasy on your part. You are free to maintain a relationships but your premise was that people give up too easily. You have yet to show that you are in a position to know how much is too mch for other random folks writing in to City-Data.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

As a trained counselor, you really should be able to differentiate between dangerous situations and simply dysfunctional ones. There IS a difference.

As a supposed former counselor you should know that no one can predict the future--including you. That you'd expect me to pretend dysfunctional can never become disastrous is pretty delusional. Robin Williams was dysfunctional for decades......until he wasn't and decided to take it up a notch to disastrous. Fantasy can't erase the fact that that possibility is ever present with unmedicated/untreated folks.



Oh man - I TOTALLY disagree with your position on this! And it's not just me who disagrees - NAMI disagrees as well (National Association for the Mentally Ill). Also, my training in dealing with mentally ill patients did not teach this belief of yours - so apparently there's a difference of PROFESSIONAL opinion on this matter.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

What I have learned -and believe - is that while a mentally ill person is not responsible for their mental illness, many of them have the capability to take responsibility for the TREATMENT of that mental illness, and for their behaviors within the context of their mental illness.

Except the cases you trumpet are ones where no one has gotten treatment.


[quote=KathrynAragon;37350196] I am not discrediting the experiences of others. But it's not like I'm inexperienced in dealing with this myself. []/quote]

You haven't ""dealt with anything" therapeutically. These folks are still according to you untreated. You and your kids have suffered mightily and as of the beginning of this thread, are not out of the woods.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Right - and there are many mentally ill people who are NOT unreachable.

You asked if there really are some who can't be reached. I answered that there are indeed some that can't be reached. You agree with me then de frame the argument to be about some when your first assertion was that all mentally ill folks can be reached. Nice try but again there's no logical cause and effect to your arguments just back tracking and re framing.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

What I have SAID repeatedly though is that if we have indeed suffered abuse, or even ongoing disrespect (some of which may be abusive and some which may not be), we may be suffering from some damage from that relationship. If we don't address that damage, we are simply moving forward but carrying it with us. We may make future decisions regarding relationships from a damaged perspective rather than from a whole, healthy perspective.

You asserted that cutting contact may feel good but it doesn't address the damage. Neither does trying to retrain your abuser. Once again, the way to address their damage is individual therapy. That has no connection with maintaining a connection to your abuser.

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Wow, for a professional counselor, you sure haven't seemed to understand a word of what I've said.

I've understood you perfectly. You have not understood the majority giving valuable feedback on your thread. And that was a nice passive aggressive dig to suggest my skills are up for debate when yours have been called into question and are severely lacking.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by Ticatica

Management techniques are not to be applied to interactions with abusers. De framing once again.

There are some behaviors (you can call them techniques if you like) that we can employ in any number of situations in both the professional and personal realm of relationships, that can change the dynamics and the interactions between participants.

I did not say (and you know I did not say) that we should use management techniques with abusers.

You chose to recount how you've done damage to them that you regret. You can't play it differently now as if mentioning them is off topic and insinuate it's a low blow. You spoke of their damage and wanted us to think on it so they can't be perfect....can they?

I didn't accuse you of a low blow - nor did I insinuate that your accusation was off topic or a low blow. You leveled the accusation, I responded to it.

And I have never insinuated that they're "perfect" either. In fact, this question of yours nearly compels me to disregard everything else you say, it's so...well...unnecessarily inflammatory and silly.

Of course my kids aren't perfect - besides the fact that NO one is perfect, I am not someone who is inordinately proud of my kids or in denial of their faults. I AM proud though that they are, without exception, strong, capable people who have moved forward in their lives and who have NOT repeated the mistakes that I made (marrying an abuser). I am very grateful for the fact that they've chosen their spouses and the parents of my grandchildren very well. Though I give them full credit for their wise choices, they have told me that witnessing both my mistakes and my corrections taught them a lot about making good choices.

You have not controlled every minute of interaction between them and your mother because that's simply impossible. When an unmedicated person is in a manic phase and behaves inappropriately it is disturbing. It certainly disturbed you enough to stop interacting for over a year. Once again, can't have it both ways.

My kids are grown now and are fully capable of dealing with my mother wisely. We also share an open line of communication about this and they bounce things off me if they feel the need.

When they were younger, due largely to the fact that we didn't live near my parents for much of the time, I actually WAS able to control the interaction between my mother and my kids. Did she ever behave poorly around my kids? Yes. Did I get up and leave with my kids immediately? Yes. Was this a good learning experience for my kids? They would tell you it was and I think it was as well.

For the record, just in case you were worried about it - I NEVER left my kids alone with my mother when they were young. Never. Not once.

Don't worry you are too uniformed to offend me. I did not insinuate, I stated baldly that their behavior can and does escalate. All the more reason to keep your distance until they make the commitment to taking their meds and therapy.

We disagree on some major points. You assume that it's because I'm uniformed. I know otherwise and don't feel the need to "prove myself to you."

If you are indeed as well educated as you claim to be on the subject of mental illness, you know that there are mental health professionals who are more educated and experienced than either of us who would take your side - and my side - on the matter of whether or not all or most mentally ill individuals (treated or untreated) are dangerous - which was your assertion.

Personally, I am appalled that anyone would lump all mentally ill people together and claim that they're dangerous or that their behavior DOES escalate to dangerous levels. Yes, in some people it CAN escalate to dangerous levels. In some people it WILL escalate to dangerous levels. In some people, well, it simply won't.

Here's something you don't know about my mother - because it hasn't come up in the discussion: Several years ago, my mother had a major stroke. This stroke actually did somewhat change her personality (a common effect of a stroke), in addition to burdening her with some physical limitations and challenges. Also, my mother's bipolar episodes were exacerbated by hormonal fluctuations (not caused by them, but exacerbated by them). When she went through menopause, her symptoms lessened slightly. With the stroke, her manic episodes decreased even more, in part because she literally doesn't have the physical stamina to maintain her manic behaviors. So - in her case (and in others) the symptoms of her mental illness most definitely have NOT escalated - at least not in any way that is destructive or dangerous (she does seem to become confused more easily but that may or may not be due to her mental illness).

You can't have it both ways. She's not taking care of herself independently isincethe court has forced her to be in the care of another. And just because she's had no violent episodes you are aware of doesn't mean she can't. It also doesn't mean she can't start a fire in the living room because her delusion told her she's camping in the cold.

Wow, I thought I was so clear in my description of my aunt. I clearly stated that the courts have appointed her daughter as her guardian and that they live together. I clearly stated that her delusions impede her ability to live ON HER OWN. I also clearly stated that she is able to carry some responsibilities while living with her daughter - she is able to feed herself, cook occasionally, keep her space clean, help with household chores, etc. I stated that she is unable to do this completely independently because her occasional delusions cause her to choose not to eat, or choose not to pay bills, that sort of thing.

There has never been A SINGLE INDICATION that any of her behaviors have put anyone else in any danger. In fact, her paranoid schizophrenia did not even manifest till she was in her forties and her children were grown, so she didn't burden them with her mental illness as they were growing up. By the time it manifested, they were grown and mature and healthy and able to step in to help her.

Delusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary That's it. She gets a thought and for weeks or months and that thought that is not true is true for her.

Thanks but I don't need a link to Wikipedia to understand what a delusion is.

You can hope nothing catastrophic blossoms from it, but you are delusional if you think you can predict what will stick in her diseased mind tomorrow. it's simply fantasy on your part. You are free to maintain a relationships but your premise was that people give up too easily. You have yet to show that you are in a position to know how much is too mch for other random folks writing in to City-Data.

Hey, guess what - even with mentally ill people - the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Not everyone who is mentally ill is stark raving mad or a dangerous psychopath.

Nyah, even according to Wikipedia, I'm not delusional.

As a supposed former counselor you should know that no one can predict the future--including you. That you'd expect me to pretend dysfunctional can never become disastrous is pretty delusional.

As a supposed counselor yourself, you should know that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

That you'd actually accuse me of stating that "dysfunctional can never become disastrous" is downright deceptive on your point. I have shared that my brother had a terrible psychotic breakdown and was a danger to others and himself and was in fact arrested and is now in a mental healthcare facility! That's pretty disastrous and I've been very open about it. I didn't take his dangerous psychosis casually and I've stated repeatedly that I had to greatly distance myself and my kids from him.

So please don't employ disingenuous methods by twisting and misrepresenting what I say.

Robin Williams was dysfunctional for decades......until he wasn't and decided to take it up a notch to disastrous. Fantasy can't erase the fact that that possibility is ever present with unmedicated/untreated folks.

And people who have never been diagnosed with mental illness at all take their lives, unfortunately. The vast majority of mentally ill people do not, however - nor do they pose much danger to others.

Yes, they should be monitored closely - whether they are in treatment or not. My training as well as my personal experience have both taught me that there are warning signs we should always be on the lookout for when we have a mentally ill person in our lives. I believe this very strongly and am prepared to monitor them very diligently.

Except the cases you trumpet are ones where no one has gotten treatment.

Actually this isn't true either. I have repeatedly discussed my brother, who is in a very controlled treatment plan and who is doing extremely well in that program. I have also discussed my aunt in great detail. I need to make something clear about her. She does not take anti psychotic meds, but she DOES attend therapy sessions with a mental healthcare professional. Her mental and physical health are both monitored not only by her daughter, but by healthcare professionals. She is cooperative with this. Since many professionals have determined that she is not a danger to others, and is only a danger to herself in the sense that she neglects her own needs if she's not watched over, I'd say she's doing pretty well. And she and my cousin are both happy living together. Yes, it's sometimes challenging and sometimes frustrating but they get along well and I am SO happy about that for both of them.

You haven't ""dealt with anything" therapeutically. These folks are still according to you untreated.

I cannot force my mother to receive treatment. But I can get my own counseling, my own treatment, the therapeutic help that I need - and I've done so. If I need more, I'll go get more. Meanwhile, life is good.

I also regularly take the classes for family members that are offered by NAMI. They have asked me repeatedly to attend the training and teach some of the classes in the future and I'm considering doing so. I think NAMI is a great organization.

And as I've stated, my brother and my aunt have received treatment and are still receiving treatment - professional treatment. My aunt is not taking meds, but she is attending therapy sessions. She's doing pretty well.

Oh, and my cousin has the occasional therapy session as well - it's not easy caring for a mentally ill person.

You and your kids have suffered mightily and as of the beginning of this thread, are not out of the woods.

I'm 52. My kids are 32, 30, 28, and 26. Three of the four live in far flung locales, due to their careers. All four are aware of my mother's issues but since I controlled her access to them very well when they were young, and since they've learned how to establish their own healthy boundaries, and since we have great communication with each other, I feel confident that my mother is not a danger to them. She's certainly not to me either for that matter. She was when I was young and didn't know how to deal with her. Not any longer. But thanks for caring!

You asserted that cutting contact may feel good but it doesn't address the damage. Neither does trying to retrain your abuser. Once again, the way to address their damage is individual therapy. That has no connection with maintaining a connection to your abuser.

When did I say that "cutting contact may feel good but it doesn't address the damage?" Those are your words - I don't believe I said anything like that. What i HAVE said is that we need to address the damage that an abuser has done to us -and I firmly believe that.

What I've also said is that I believe that sometimes SOME PEOPLE (not leveling any accusations at anyone on this forum, just to clarify) slap the "toxic person" label on people when they themselves are just as "toxic" due to their own unaddressed problems! The example of the person not being able to see to get the splinter out of someone else's eye, because of the log in their own eye, springs to mind.

There's lots of "pop psychology" out there that teaches, "If people aren't making you feel good, put them out of their life - they're toxic/negative energy/fill in the blank." Relationships aren't just about feeling good or what a person can do for us. There's more to relationships than that, and I don't think that everyone who's been labeled as "toxic" is, just because they didn't make someone feel good 24/7.

This in no way justifies actual abuse or an attitude of disrespect.

I have also made it very clear that if a person is a danger to us, we are under no obligation to allow them to be so. This may involve cutting them entirely out of our life.

But let me give you an example - once again, my brother. Untreated, he is a danger to me. Treated, that danger is greatly lessened. Would I be comfortable moving him into my house? No. Would I feel comfortable with him "loose in society?" At this point, no. When he WAS "loose in society," I installed a security system, I alerted my receptionist of his situation (with instructions on what to do if he showed up, to protect herself and others), and I did not allow him to be around me, or my children. If he showed up at a family gathering, even after my kids were grown, I would leave at the first sign of disrespect or inappropriate behavior. But have I completely removed him from my life? No. It's pretty easy to use common sense when dealing with him.

But as his family, we are part of his treatment plan (if we choose to be). He's not in this alone. We have also chosen to educate ourselves (via mental health professionals) about how to deal with him, which includes how to enforce appropriate boundaries when he's with us (he is able to leave the facility for visits with family, in a controlled situation and with proper advice and resources for the family).

Yes, my brother is mentally ill - and he's abused all those who love him in the past. He may do so again, but so far so good.

I do not, by the way, think that we OWE it to a bona fide abuser to try to "retrain" them. What I've stated is that sometimes it may be OPTIONAL for us to learn some coping techniques as well as learn how to respond to abusive or dysfunctional people from a HEALTHY place, rather than a dark place filled with personal baggage.

I've understood you perfectly.

Apparently not, since you've misquoted me, put words in my mouth, made wild assumptions, and misrepresented what I've said in every one of your posts. I was hoping that we could actually have a meaningful discussion about our differences of opinion, but that hope is fading fast.

You have not understood the majority giving valuable feedback on your thread.

Not only have I understood what they are saying, I have agreed with a lot of what they've said, even if I didn't agree with their entire post. I've made this clear. And I've also expressed appreciation for their honest feedback.

Though I don't appreciate dishonest feedback - ie, twisting or misrepresenting what I've said. And I will always call that hand, as you can tell.

And that was a nice passive aggressive dig to suggest my skills are up for debate when yours have been called into question and are severely lacking.

Oh, I didn't mean for it to be passive aggressive at all - I thought it was very clear myself. I do question your credentials which you tout, when you seem to have such a difficult time actually listening to what I'm saying, and an even more difficult time rephrasing it truthfully - which is a pretty basic skill that most counselors are expected to master.

[Lilac110]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

I didn't say it was always a copout. My question was "Do people sometimes use this phrase as a copout because it's easier to label someone as toxic than it is to fix ourselves or put extra effort into a relationship?"

I can see that. It's kind of like how some people use the word "drama" to describe someone else's display of emotion just because they are not comfortable with either the emotion or how the other person is expressing it. It then becomes the other person's fault for being "dramatic" when really, the upset person has every right to be upset, and the person calling the emotional display "drama" just doesn't want to acknowledge or work through whatever is upsetting the person (including their own actions that hurt the other person) or look within to see if perhaps they're just lacking in empathy. My last SO was notorious for that. He could pitch a fit of road rage and cuss all the way home if someone in the HOV lane was going 50 MPH, but my bawling in grief over the death of my pet was over the top and I needed to "get a hold" of myself. He could needle and nag, but if I got angry, it was drama.

By the same token, it can be easy to call someone "toxic" when they point out something negative about you or express a less than positive opinion on something you did--IF you're hypersensitive. I have known people who chafe at the slightest insinuation that they are less than perfect. Often enough, that's their own conscience talking.

The trick is to be honest with yourself: Is the person REALLY toxic or are you maybe making a mountain out of a molehill?

I think the problem, especially with women, is that women tend to blame themselves when there is a negative dynamic in the relationship: "Was it something I did?" And then they want to make it better: "How can I help you?"

We--or at least women born in the mid-70s or earlier--also tend to have been raised with the notion that confrontation is unpleasant and unladylike, so we try to be diplomatic to the point of being ineffectual or we just suffer in silence.

Either way, it takes a lot of us entirely too long to speak up and set boundaries, and we end up getting into our 40s and beyond before it dawns on us: "Heyyyyy, there's nothing wrong with ME other than that I've enabled and overindulged THAT jerk and let him/her get away with treating me crappily for far too long."

And in families, if all you've ever known is toxicity, that's your normal. You don't even know it's toxicity. One more reason a lot of people don't cut ties until they either have some physical distance from their families, become part of a more healthy family via partnership/marriage, have kids, get psychotherapy, or simply see the looks of outrage and astonishment from friends when telling a story about something that was normal for their family but that most people, like their friends, would consider abusive and unacceptable.

I ramble. Deadlines do that. Comes a point when you just barf it up and hope it makes sense.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by Lilac110

I can see that. It's kind of like how some people use the word "drama" to describe someone else's display of emotion just because they are not comfortable with either the emotion or how the other person is expressing it. It then becomes the other person's fault for being "dramatic" when really, the upset person has every right to be upset, and the person calling the emotional display "drama" just doesn't want to acknowledge or work through whatever is upsetting the person (including their own actions that hurt the other person) or look within to see if perhaps they're just lacking in empathy. My last SO was notorious for that. He could pitch a fit of road rage and cuss all the way home if someone in the HOV lane was going 50 MPH, but my bawling in grief over the death of my pet was over the top and I needed to "get a hold" of myself. He could needle and nag, but if I got angry, it was drama.

By the same token, it can be easy to call someone "toxic" when they point out something negative about you or express a less than positive opinion on something you did--IF you're hypersensitive. I have known people who chafe at the slightest insinuation that they are less than perfect. Often enough, that's their own conscience talking.

The trick is to be honest with yourself: Is the person REALLY toxic or are you maybe making a mountain out of a molehill?

I think the problem, especially with women, is that women tend to blame themselves when there is a negative dynamic in the relationship: "Was it something I did?" And then they want to make it better: "How can I help you?"

We--or at least women born in the mid-70s or earlier--also tend to have been raised with the notion that confrontation is unpleasant and unladylike, so we try to be diplomatic to the point of being ineffectual or we just suffer in silence.

Either way, it takes a lot of us entirely too long to speak up and set boundaries, and we end up getting into our 40s and beyond before it dawns on us: "Heyyyyy, there's nothing wrong with ME other than that I've enabled and overindulged THAT jerk and let him/her get away with treating me crappily for far too long."

And in families, if all you've ever known is toxicity, that's your normal. You don't even know it's toxicity. One more reason a lot of people don't cut ties until they either have some physical distance from their families, become part of a more healthy family via partnership/marriage, have kids, get psychotherapy, or simply see the looks of outrage and astonishment from friends when telling a story about something that was normal for their family but that most people, like their friends, would consider abusive and unacceptable.

I ramble. Deadlines do that. Comes a point when you just barf it up and hope it makes sense.

WOW! Bingo, Lilac - thanks for this excellent post.

To anyone else reading this:

Lilac is a great example of tough love, and my "relationship" with Lilac is a good example of how two people can disagree on some points, even debate with great passion some emotionally tender point, argue, etc - and yet still show each other respect and objectively point out where they agree and disagree without being offensive.

I bring up that because I was just about to post something to Ticatica regarding my own personal boundaries, and lo and behold, here is this eloquent post by Lilac, who is a person I've often debated with on this forum.

So thank you for the reminder, Lilac, that two intelligent people don't have to always agree with each other in order to show respect for each other and to be able to appreciate truth from the other even if they don't always agree.

Ticatica, here is my personal boundary:

We can continue to discuss this topic, but I am only going to continue to debate and discuss it with you on mutually respectful terms. Unfortunately, I have veered off a bit and been a bit sarcastic with you, and I shouldn't have allowed myself to go in that direction, so I'm not going to any more.

I also will not respond to any sarcasm or disrespectful verbiage from you. However, if you'd like to continue the discussion, we're both obviously eloquent and intelligent people and we should be able to do so in a respectful way. If you're interested in that sort of discussion, just let me know.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird

OP, I really like a lot of your posts. But you have gotten a lot of feedback about the message they are getting, and I know I have gotten messages about it. Maybe it's time for you to have some introspection about why you are getting this responce. I mean, every time someone says something, you come right back in length. It's exhausting.

By the way, I just want to point something out.

There are, I think 126 responses so far on this thread. There are 32 participants. They've all given feedback - some negative, some positive, some a mixture of both, some neutral. Out of the 32 participants at least 14 of them (i stopped counting on about page 9) expressed agreement with my position, and others expressed at least a partial agreement.

My point is that yes - I've gotten a lot of feedback and the conversation has been very interesting.

I've digested all of them pretty thoroughly, but I'm not asking you to do the same, since apparently the conversation exhausts you (not that I blame you - I know I can be very tenacious and verbose!). I'm just putting this in perspective.

Sometimes we only see what we want to see. Sometimes it's easy to overlook what we disagree with. I mean that directed at me as much as you or anyone else.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Before I go any further, let me state that I do think that some people deserve to be hoisted right out of our lives. I do not think that anyone "owes anybody" any time standing in the firing line of abuse.

But I read so many posts about cutting people completely off - and not just casual friends, but intimate friends or immediate family - people whose lives have played a big part in who we all are today. I want to offer another alternative. That's not to say that anyone has to take it, but it's something to think about.

Let's use unreasonable, disrespectful mothers as an example - since apparently there are a lot of them around.

You're raised by your mom. Your sense of self worth is shaped by her from an early age. Your personal habits, likes and dislikes, expectations, etc are all very much impacted by her influence on your life in most cases (I'm not talking about mothers who abandon their kids early on, just to clarify).

Along the way, you may come to realize that your mother is ape **** crazy. Or that she's a sociopath. Or that she's emotionally damaged herself. Or that she's got some sort of personality disorder. Or that she's completely unreasonable. Or that her personality is in direct conflict with yours. Or that her beliefs and yours don't match up at all. Pick your poison.

Anyway, if that's the case, I'm sure that you could probably write a book on all the crazy, unreasonable, and sometimes cruel things such a person has done to you. I'm sure you could make a good case for walking away from this relationship entirely and "living happily ever after," and I'm sure that some people have done just that.

But others have found that doing so creates a lot of other family drama and before you know it, bingo - you're cutting people off left and right! Your holidays are screwed up, or your kids don't know their grandparents at all, or every minute you spend around your mother makes your skin crawl.

I'm here to present another possible alternative.

If a dysfunctional mother raised you, I can promise you that you have emotional damage from that upbringing. if you just cut her out of your life, that may feel satisfying on one level, but what have you done to "fix yourself?" What have you done to model strength and to model your values to other people?

There is great personal satisfaction in working through one's own issues and then approaching these "toxic people" and saying, "Here are my parameters and my values. I insist that you respect those. If you cannot do so, then we'll have to part ways, which will be unfortunate, because I only have one mother, and you only have one me. Personally, I am disinclined to throw our relationship away, but I also am going to live by my value system. Here are my parameters:" And then name them.

For me they were, "You are not to call me at 6 am - or at 10 am for that matter - raising hell. If you write your manifestos to me in letter or email form, I am not going to read them. When you are in my house, you will show respect for my religious beliefs, my lifestyle choices, my political stance, etc. If you want to discuss these matters with me, I insist that the discussions be respectful, with no name calling, no insulting, no inflammatory language. You will treat me as an adult, not as a child. If you become rude to me in my home, I will ask you to leave. If you become rude to me in YOUR home, I will immediately leave."

Then I had to retrain her, which meant that there were unpleasant scenarios for a time. I did have to get up and leave her house on more than one occasion. I also had to tell her to leave me house. Once I had to insist that she PAY FOR A BUNCH OF LIBRARY BOOKS that she had written "BS!" and other derogatory notes throughout. I had to go 18 months without talking to her at one point because I had told her not to call me raising hell, and not to yell at me and then hang up - and she did so anyway. So...I wasn't going to call her till she apologized. She held out 18 months, but by golly - she apologized.

The end result is that I have a decent relationship with my mom. It took about three years of work on my part, "retraining her" - and retraining myself and my responses to her. BUT IT WAS SO WORTH IT. Now my mother is in my life - under my terms. She occasionally steps outside the boundaries, and I have to hold her to those boundaries, but I also know that (here comes the good part):

SHE RESPECTS ME.

This means a lot to me.

I'm glad I didn't give up. She is now an elderly, rather needy woman, and it's sad to think of her having to be alone if my father goes before she does. Now she doesn't have to be alone, and I don't have to worry about whether or not I gave it my best shot. I know I did.

Also, an aside note - I have a better relationship with my dad. Yes, this involved some confrontation - after all, he was the one who stood by and allowed her to abuse my brother and me. We had to work through that. But we did, and now we're a family. No family is perfect - but respect is possible in many cases.

I'm not saying that it's never appropriate to cut someone completely out of our lives. Of course it can be. It's not always the only answer though.

Food for thought.

Wow. I love this post.

My mother and I had a VERY rocky relationship; she was controlling, overbearing, needy, and possibly bi-polar.

After I had my son, I moved back to my hometown for a job and to be closer to family. So glad I did because my Mom and I discovered we had something big in common - we both loved my son! She loved him so much . . now I still had to set boundaries or ELSE she would have completely taken over.

Over her objections, he went to daycare instead of spending everyday with Grandma and Grandad - simply gives family too much control if they have that bent anyway.

She was as thrilled as me when he took his first step; said his first word . . . . and yet we still fought all the time; hung up on each other but those times got shorter and shorter.

She got cancer not long after I returned home and lived until my son was about 5 years old. He was the light of her life. I told her, right before she died, what a great impact she had had on my son's life and she was so moved by that and then I by her.

I'm glad I had the chance to see past her flaws and she mine. That we found a place to come together before she died.

I still think she probably screwed me up something awful - but she was deeply flawed herself.

I wonder what my son says about me . . .

[HighFlyingBird]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

By the way, I just want to point something out.

There are, I think 126 responses so far on this thread. There are 32 participants. They've all given feedback - some negative, some positive, some a mixture of both, some neutral. Out of the 32 participants at least 14 of them (i stopped counting on about page 9) expressed agreement with my position, and others expressed at least a partial agreement.

My point is that yes - I've gotten a lot of feedback and the conversation has been very interesting.

I've digested all of them pretty thoroughly, but I'm not asking you to do the same, since apparently the conversation exhausts you (not that I blame you - I know I can be very tenacious and verbose!). I'm just putting this in perspective.

Sometimes we only see what we want to see. Sometimes it's easy to overlook what we disagree with. I mean that directed at me as much as you or anyone else.

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Wow, take a step back and think about your behavior...please. You have hit an all time high of judgement, condescension, and pseudo teaching no one asked you for. Pat yourself on the back all you want...but just because you talk alot and people back off, means you are too tiring or too abrasive for people to deal with. Something I learned at 16.

The vast majority of people don't have reason to cut their FOO out of their lives, of course they will be like "hell yeah"...cause they don't get it. Looks like you don't either.

Best of luck, I am more then done with this post...etc.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Wow, take a step back and think about your behavior...please. You have hit an all time high of judgement, condescension, and pseudo teaching no one asked you for. Pat yourself on the back all you want...but just because you talk alot and people back off, means you are too tiring or too abrasive for people to deal with. Something I learned at 16.

The vast majority of people don't have reason to cut their FOO out of their lives, of course they will be like "hell yeah"...cause they don't get it. Looks like you don't either.

Best of luck, I am more then done with this post...etc.

You know - you really should use that ignore option if this level of discussion bothers you so much. I'm genuinely sorry if I've offended you - it was not at all my intention.

Best of luck to you as well.