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Right. So your situation isnt nessesarly right for anyone else and it's impossible to apply your situation to other people's isn't even a fair suggestion. All you can do is support people through their own decision making process.
If I treated other people the way my parents treated me, well then I was expect they wouldn't want to be involved with me. DNA or not.
I'm really feeling like you are telling us you are more enlightened and healed for having contact. Its coming across preachy, maybe driven by anxiety over proving the decision wise before this upcoming holiday.
Honestly, I would never expose my kids to one of my dads paranoid rages, not even for the 7 seconds it takes to walk to the door. Not to mention, he chases. I don't find anything healthy in teaching my children from that situation.
Your situation is apparently very different from mine.
I'm not preaching at you. I am not criticizing your choices. In fact, I've stated repeatedly that sometimes cutting people out of our lives is the best choice. What I AM doing is encouraging people to look at other possibilities and to look within themselves before they just slap the "toxic - no soup for you!" label on people and kick them to the curb. And never have I accused you or anyone else on this thread of that attitude.
As for anxiety about the upcoming holidays instigating my post - that's the furthest thing from my mind. I see my mother all the time. I just saw her Sunday in fact - and I am going to see her again today. In fact, I just had to shoot off an email outlining boundaries to her again before my visit today! To make a long saga short, she has created a situation and now wants me to support her solution to that situation, and it's not my circus and not my monkeys. I told her that I am not going to interject myself into the decision between my dad and her and do not try to get me involved in it when I come over today. And if she still tries to get me involved in it, I will give her one chance in person - I'll say, "Mom, I asked you not to involve me so if you insist on it, I'm going to leave." And then if she insists, I'll leave. If she drops it (as she probably will at that point) then it's all good.
These things take ongoing work and sometimes people still won't respect our boundaries, so we need to be emotionally prepared to enforce them. This could mean anything from just walking out of the house (while still keeping the relationship intact) to completely severing the relationship. Each situation is different because each person and each relationship is different.
Right. So your situation isnt nessesarly right for anyone else and it's impossible to apply your situation to other people's isn't even a fair suggestion. All you can do is support people through their own decision making process.
If I treated other people the way my parents treated me, well then I was expect they wouldn't want to be involved with me. DNA or not.
I'm really feeling like you are telling us you are more enlightened and healed for having contact. Its coming across preachy, maybe driven by anxiety over proving the decision wise before this upcoming holiday.
Honestly, I would never expose my kids to one of my dads paranoid rages, not even for the 7 seconds it takes to walk to the door. Not to mention, he chases. I don't find anything healthy in teaching my children from that situation.
I agree with this. There is some anxiety there in trying to prove the right decision was made. There are some of us out here that have a clear conscience about not speaking to some family members. It is very liberating!
I'm polite if there is a family gathering, but do not go out of my way to have a relationship.
I agree with this. There is some anxiety there in trying to prove the right decision was made. There are some of us out here that have a clear conscience about not speaking to some family members. It is very liberating!
I'm polite if there is a family gathering, but do not go out of my way to have a relationship.
Hey. I am one of those with a clean conscience about not speaking to some family members. And you're right on target - it can be a very liberating decision and state of mind!
I'm not saying we have a moral obligation to keep all our family members involved in our lives. What I'm saying is that it's a very serious decision to cut family members completely out of our lives, so we should look carefully at ALL our options -including looking closely at our own emotional issues, character, and personality, before we take such drastic measures.
I also haven't criticized anyone for cutting anyone out of their lives, or demanded any sort of explanation. If people feel defensive, perhaps that's an indication that they may need to revisit their decision. I don't know - but it can't be because I've blamed them or criticized them, because I certainly haven't.
That being said, I know this discussion is bound to hit nerves, because it's never an easy decision to cut anyone out of our lives, and the situation always involves hurt feelings and often bitter disappointments. So I don't blame anyone for being taken aback at the very idea of other options and I certainly don't blame people for an emotional response. It's an emotional topic.
And I want to take a moment to remind people of the VERY FIRST THING I STATED in the OP:
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Before I go any further, let me state that I do think that some people deserve to be hoisted right out of our lives. I do not think that anyone "owes anybody" any time standing in the firing line of abuse.
But I read so many posts about cutting people completely off - and not just casual friends, but intimate friends or immediate family - people whose lives have played a big part in who we all are today. I want to offer another alternative. That's not to say that anyone has to take it, but it's something to think about.
Hey. I am one of those with a clean conscience about not speaking to some family members. And you're right on target - it can be a very liberating decision and state of mind!
I'm not saying we have a moral obligation to keep all our family members involved in our lives. What I'm saying is that it's a very serious decision to cut family members completely out of our lives, so we should look carefully at ALL our options -including looking closely at our own emotional issues, character, and personality, before we take such drastic measures.
I also haven't criticized anyone for cutting anyone out of their lives, or demanded any sort of explanation. If people feel defensive, perhaps that's an indication that they may need to revisit their decision. I don't know - but it can't be because I've blamed them or criticized them, because I certainly haven't.
That being said, I know this discussion is bound to hit nerves, because it's never an easy decision to cut anyone out of our lives, and the situation always involves hurt feelings and often bitter disappointments. So I don't blame anyone for being taken aback at the very idea of other options and I certainly don't blame people for an emotional response. It's an emotional topic.
I can tell that you are a very caring sensitive person. Some of us are not like that 100% of the time.
Hey. I am one of those with a clean conscience about not speaking to some family members. And you're right on target - it can be a very liberating decision and state of mind!
I'm not saying we have a moral obligation to keep all our family members involved in our lives. What I'm saying is that it's a very serious decision to cut family members completely out of our lives, so we should look carefully at ALL our options -including looking closely at our own emotional issues, character, and personality, before we take such drastic measures.
I also haven't criticized anyone for cutting anyone out of their lives, or demanded any sort of explanation. If people feel defensive, perhaps that's an indication that they may need to revisit their decision. I don't know - but it can't be because I've blamed them or criticized them, because I certainly haven't.
That being said, I know this discussion is bound to hit nerves, because it's never an easy decision to cut anyone out of our lives, and the situation always involves hurt feelings and often bitter disappointments. So I don't blame anyone for being taken aback at the very idea of other options and I certainly don't blame people for an emotional response. It's an emotional topic.
Of course it is. And what you may have inadvertently done here is cause people who have had to make that decision to second guess their choice and rehash their process - which you may say is a good thing, but for some it certainly is not.
Often people are not able to heal from issues caused by toxic people until they have actually removed themselves from the situation. And whether they have issues themselves at that time is not the point. You don't have to be healed/wiser/the better person before you decide. Sometimes that's not possible, nor wise.
I'm not speaking of people who cut people out of their lives precisely because they are a toxic-poor-me person. But of people who may have struggled mightily with it, who have found the courage, and who you are now telling just didn't do as good a job as they could have, didn't try hard enough, didn't fix their own side of the fence, could have done better if they'd just do things the way you do them.
Well for some people getting rid of the environment is paramount, above and beyond fixing one's own self. Especially if minors are involved. And unfortunately they may never be as at peace as they could be. But they did the right thing regardless. I would hate anybody reading this to think they failed at making the right decision, when the decision wasn't really a choice.
For example, did you wait until you'd fixed yourself before you left and set boundaries with your ex husband? I hope not. Your children were more important than doing it the "right" way.
And we're talking truly toxic or completely unmanageable very close relationships, I assume. Otherwise, people come and people go, for all sorts of reasons, and that's just life.
Right - and I'm not talking about those people and those situations. Never have I said "never give up on someone!" Actually I've stated the opposite and given examples of people I consider toxic that I've cut out of my life.
Those aren't the situations we're talking about.
Just be sure you're not as toxic and self centered as she is. Not saying that you are. What I'm saying is hold yourself to the same standards you hold your mother to, and things will probably be fine in your other relationships.
I think my biggest gripe, now that I process all this, is when I hear people talking about "cutting toxic people out of their lives" and I look at them and think, "Wow, you're no saint yourself - you're as self centered as the person you're cutting out of your life in fact!" Often they even JUSTIFY their own behavior by saying it's emotional damage from the abuse they endured from that other person. Well, stop the cycle then. "Get your own head straight before you insist on everyone else's head being on straight"is what I'm saying to them.
I understand the "well you are emotionally damaged so look at yourself first before you make such decisions type attitude." What I usually see is people trying with their family so many times that they are only letting themselves become even more damaged.
If someone is continuing to abuse you and you give them nine chances, you should not expect that on the tenth chance they are going to change. Maybe some people are strong enough to endure that. I know that in my case I am not and I'm not ashamed to say so.
The cons usually outweigh the pros of constantly trying in a dead end situation.
First, I'd like to say I appreciate that you are bringing this topic up. It provokes a lot of thought and gets people thinking about how they need to take care of themselves and their families.
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Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I guess I'm saying that often I see "Cut 'em loose!" as the FIRST option given when I think the first option should often be, "Fix yourself and then lay out your healthy parameters and give them the opportunity to respond."
No, it probably shouldn't be the first option, but I assume most people who have done this have been putting up with things for a while with no relief in sight. For me, it has been >7 years total (3 years on and off, 4+ years of frequent contact). I've tried at least three solid times to say, "just distance yourself. Maybe you can go out for coffee once in a while or see each other around the holidays." When I've tried to do this, I end up getting some out-of-nowhere, explosive, would-be guilt-inducing diatribe (and I've not even verbally told this this to the person or had any contact with her; I've just stepped back and thought for a couple of days).
OTOH, I have a sister who was horribly verbally abusive me as a child (and she was an full-grown adult, to boot). She started to pave a pretty good life for herself, but now the shoe is on the other foot. She's unemployable, a former addict, married to a verbally-abusive drug dealer/alcoholic, and can't dig herself out of her situation. As badly as she treated me, I never cut her out. I distanced myself from her and made my own path. At points I had to set boundaries, but she is reasonable enough to respect those boundaries. Some people just aren't.
BTW, this is pretty much what I cleared my calendar permanently of last night:
If you can, by all means try to salvage a relationship. However, it is important to point out that there are some relationships that are just not worth saving.
The harsh reality is, there are many people in this world who live for the sole purpose of trying to control others and making them miserable. These are the people you have to let go for your own sanity, even if there are close family members.
If you can, by all means try to salvage a relationship. However, it is important to point out that there are some relationships that are just not worth saving.
The harsh reality is, there are many people in this world who live for the sole purpose of trying to control others and making them miserable. These are the people you have to let go for your own sanity, even if there are close family members.
I agree with this. Also in dysfunctional families, sometimes there is a hive mind thinking 'if you're not with us, you're against us.' Any rearrangement of that dysfunction causes anxiety; such as someone who has cleaned up their act and wants to be civil, kind, polite, and mindful of others feelings. In dysfunctional families, someone who wants to get mentally healthy is a threat to the way the family runs (usually on dysfunction), and so the abuse towards the person who has decided to change is magnified.
Every situation is different. I think you're a strong person whether you decide to stay and turn the other cheek, or cut your losses and seek healthier relationships from which you receive what you need.
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