Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I see what you're saying, but it begs the question of whether a relationship with the person is worth the effort of "retraining" them. Often enough, it's not. I don't think that would be a cop-out, because depending on what else you have going on in your life--kids, illness, job woes, financial issues--you may not have either the time or energy for it, and on your list of priorities, that person falls at the bottom.
Or, to put it in cold terms, what is the return on your investment?
Also, often enough, when people break contact, it's not to punish the other person--although some do. Often, though, it's to give themselves space to heal, either from what that person did to them, or other things going on in their lives that the other person is actively making worse.
I have had to put aside a relationship with a sister with whom I was once very close. When my ex-SO and I split up, not only was she not supportive, she was proactively negative, discouraging, and even punitive in her comments to me. She wanted to play up-manship with how rough her life has been as a way of minimizing what I was going through, and she was toxic enough to say, "Well, you made your choices, now you deal with the consequences." (CPG: Did you know that people who freelance do so because they want to sleep until noon, so they deserve any hassles they get from clients who violate contracts and pay them late?)
It was like because she messed up her own life by her own poor choices--drinking her way through high school, getting knocked up her senior year, marrying at 19, divorcing at 24, and getting involved with married man after married man who went back to his wife--now it was my turn to suffer because I hadn't yet done so. My life had just been too rosy and I needed to be brought down to her level. I made more money than she did, so now I should have financial problems. I've never been "the other woman" or hit or beaten by a man, so I should be devastated by a break-up. It was like she relished seeing me in pain, yet felt I didn't deserve to talk about that pain or be helped through it because it wasn't nearly as much as what she had been through.
It was a disgusting display of both martyrdom and schadenfreude, and I don't know where I got the strength other than pure outrage and her audacity, but I called her out on her rotten behavior and haven't spoken with her since. I can honestly say that I do not miss dealing with her, and removing her from my life was an act of self-defense and survival. It freed up time in my life and room in my heart to talk to friends, go visit them, have them visit me, etc., and heal.
Life is short. Too short for toxicity.
Every situation is different. I'm just proposing an alternative that's somewhere between, "Let the dysfunction continue!" and "Let there be a pox upon you -go and never darken my towels again!"
See, here's how I look at it. We're not responsible for anyone's actions but our own. If we KNOW that we've addressed our own issues, and done all we can and should do within the relationship, then we can truly be magnanimous. We can, from a healthy place, make the offer of a respectful relationship. No relationship is ever 100 percent perfect - and some relationships are nearly 100 percent disrespectful - but sometimes by modeling mature, respectful, behavior and standards, we can help that other person become more healthy themselves - or at the very least, we can minimize the domino effect that often happens when we choose to completely cut close family members out of our lives.
Is the return on our investment worth it? We'll never know unless we try - and we have to, we MUST, try from a healthy, whole, respectful stance ourselves. Sometimes it is. And sometimes the return on our investment is nothing more than a clean conscience and self respect.
Our dignity can remain intact for other family members to see as well, to learn from, to emulate or at the least to learn to respect.
It's not always the answer but I think it's something to ponder and an alternative to consider in many cases.
Besides that, it forces US to work through our OWN emotional baggage from that relationship rather than simply stuffing it down in a box and never opening it again. In other words, not addressing the problem and having it rear it's ugly head again down the road.
There's nothing wrong with getting a backbone and to start telling people how you want to be treated.
I learned a long time ago that if someone wants to throw darts, it doesn't mean that I have to hold the dartboard.
It may mean that you end up with a lot less friends but the ones you will have left will honor, cherish, and respect you for what you are.
While every situation *is* different (and I'm going through this myself right now), when you're in a situation where someone walks all over you and everyone else around, makes ridiculous accusations, manipulates, and is out of touch with reality, it's really hard to just say, "hey, you need to respect me," because they don't see what they're doing as wrong or harmful. My last therapist advised me to sever ties and I didn't listen to him. My new one said the same thing. He told me to write down everything that happened in the most recent episodes and read it when I am feeling like I am excusing the behavior. I read it and think, "wow. why on earth would I shirk that off?" Then episode after episode from my past floods my brain and I think, "I let this person do WHAT over the years?"
This most recent therapist asked me, "what percent of the time does this person seem reasonable and pleasant?" I replied, "um, maybe 20?" He responded much like the poster above: "That's not a good return on your investment."
Every situation is different. I'm just proposing an alternative that's somewhere between, "Let the dysfunction continue!" and "Let there be a pox upon you -go and never darken my towels again!"
See, here's how I look at it. We're not responsible for anyone's actions but our own. If we KNOW that we've addressed our own issues, and done all we can and should do within the relationship, then we can truly be magnanimous. We can, from a healthy place, make the offer of a respectful relationship. No relationship is ever 100 percent perfect - and some relationships are nearly 100 percent disrespectful - but sometimes by modeling mature, respectful, behavior and standards, we can help that other person become more healthy themselves - or at the very least, we can minimize the domino effect that often happens when we choose to completely cut close family members out of our lives.
Is the return on our investment worth it? We'll never know unless we try - and we have to, we MUST, try from a healthy, whole, respectful stance ourselves. Sometimes it is. And sometimes the return on our investment is nothing more than a clean conscience and self respect.
Our dignity can remain intact for other family members to see as well, to learn from, to emulate or at the least to learn to respect.
It's not always the answer but I think it's something to ponder and an alternative to consider in many cases.
Besides that, it forces US to work through our OWN emotional baggage from that relationship rather than simply stuffing it down in a box and never opening it again. In other words, not addressing the problem and having it rear it's ugly head again down the road.
Hey, it happens.
Well, I'd been trying with this one for years.
When I passed out from horrific pain from what turned out to be endometriosis so bad, half of my insides were stuck together, she said, "I don't think it's anything. I think something is going on with you, in your head." There I am, a month later in the hospital getting filleted down the middle to the tune of 18 staples, and she didn't even show up for two days. Yep, that twisted appendix and that huge, burrito-sized endometrioma were all in my head, all right. Doctors originally thought I had ovarian cancer and were ready to give me 3 to 6 months.
When she called asking me for information on symptoms she was having, I tapped into my considerable network of information and specialists and helped her.
When she complained about men, I listened. When she complained about being broke, I offered her money. When she had no hot water and nowhere to do her laundry after Sandy, I opened my doors to her. When her son died, I was there at the hospital by her side, and I was there in her darkest, most desperate hour.
Never--and I can honestly say never--have I ever asked for any kind of emergency assistance from her in my entire life, in part because she did manage to mess up her own so badly. She did tell me I could stay with her in her 1BR apartment as a way of trying to get me to relocate last summer, but her dog would eat my pet the minute my back was turned, and she got extremely offended that I didn't see the feasibility in that, or in attempting to work under those conditions. So because I didn't do what she wanted me to do, when I did reach out, that is what I received.
No. She is a beyotch, and it's too bad I'm an atheist, because if I believed in a hell, I'd say she could go rot in it.
KA...you seem to be focusing on family relationships which I believe differ from non-family ones.
I tend to believe that many family relationships aren't so simple as person A is angelic and person B is toxic. It's just too overly simplified.
I separated myself from my dad for about 5 years and certainly could have said he was "toxic" and I would have been right and I got a lot of support from friends and professionals about it. At the time it was sort of the best I could do. Then one day (figuratively speaking...I was in therapy for years) it just evaporated and I reached out, reconciled, and we've had a good relationship since. My self-awareness and humility had increased 1000x in order for me to do it. That's NOT THE SAME as saying I think blame was equally shared or that I believe I was at fault too.
Now with non-family members...I have sort of a lower standard. There aren't a lot of friends/acquaintances for whom I would choose to go into a serious period of self-reflection to try and salvage a relationship that's gone sour. In most cases it just becomes a matter of those people slipping out of my radar when it comes time to choose who i spend my time with.
It isn't a cop out, its a choice everyone is entitled to make.
I stopped all contact with my mom because, not only is she bat **** insane, she is also abusive. As an adult, I wasn't even safe around her. Of course she put up a good front and some people would have thought she deserved mom of the year. Until I told them the things she did.
In the process I lost her, my brother (who is super emotionally immature and never was really interested in a relationship anyways) and my aunt. But I gained a very close relationship with my mom's former best friend from when I was little (a second mom) and close connections with countless other people who knew of the abuse and have supported me in my getting well, or didn't know of it but trust me.
My kids wont have a grandmother or an uncle...but they wouldn't be who they wanted anyways. When I did have contact with my mom I was a nervous wreck and she acted like they had coodies. My brother couldn't be bothered to care. And the bottom line is if my mom would abuse me and my siblings, she is not safe with my kids. And they are my first priority. Not her.
And yes, this came about with a ton of therapy. Many years so far. But I choose to stand in support of people who made the tough decision to severe ties because I don't know all the details of their lives.
While every situation *is* different (and I'm going through this myself right now), when you're in a situation where someone walks all over you and everyone else around, makes ridiculous accusations, manipulates, and is out of touch with reality, it's really hard to just say, "hey, you need to respect me," because they don't see what they're doing as wrong or harmful. My last therapist advised me to sever ties and I didn't listen to him. My new one said the same thing. He told me to write down everything that happened in the most recent episodes and read it when I am feeling like I am excusing the behavior. I read it and think, "wow. why on earth would I shirk that off?" Then episode after episode from my past floods my brain and I think, "I let this person do WHAT over the years?"
This most recent therapist asked me, "what percent of the time does this person seem reasonable and pleasant?" I replied, "um, maybe 20?" He responded much like the poster above: "That's not a good return on your investment."
In Thidwick, all of these animals camp out on his head in his antlers, until he can barely move. He loses his place in the herd and he nearly dies of starvation rather than turn them out. Hunters see Thidwick's head as quite a prize, so they try to kill him, and, facing imminent death if he doesn't find a way to outrun them, he jettisons his antlers and all the critters on them, and gets away.
In Yertle, this one bossy turtle (Yertle) wants to be king of all he surveys, so he climbs on the back of another turtle, Mack. Ever more greedy, Yertle demands that other turtles in the pond climb upon Mack's back so that Yertle can rise higher and see more. Eventually Mack gets fed up, lets out a huge burp, and Yertle tumbles off the pile and into the mud, thus freeing Mack and all the other turtles from pain and starvation.
While every situation *is* different (and I'm going through this myself right now), when you're in a situation where someone walks all over you and everyone else around, makes ridiculous accusations, manipulates, and is out of touch with reality, it's really hard to just say, "hey, you need to respect me," because they don't see what they're doing as wrong or harmful. My last therapist advised me to sever ties and I didn't listen to him. My new one said the same thing. He told me to write down everything that happened in the most recent episodes and read it when I am feeling like I am excusing the behavior. I read it and think, "wow. why on earth would I shirk that off?" Then episode after episode from my past floods my brain and I think, "I let this person do WHAT over the years?"
This most recent therapist asked me, "what percent of the time does this person seem reasonable and pleasant?" I replied, "um, maybe 20?" He responded much like the poster above: "That's not a good return on your investment."
You're still in therapy - on at least your third therapist. Maybe you aren't adept at addressing these issues from a strong, healthy perspective yet - and you may never be. That's OK - I'm not advocating that we should try to maintain difficult relationships when we ourselves are still fragile or coming from a weakened perspective. And sometimes the damage is so severe that we are never able to fully recover - and that's not a character slam by the way - it's just reality.
I am only saying that for strong, healed people who have figured out how to check their baggage, it may be a healthy option to offer to keep that person in your life in some capacity.
Like I said, sometimes the return on our investment is self confidence and a clean conscience, nothing more.
A truly healthy person doesn't judge every relationship simply by what they get out of it. That being said, the healthiest relationships are mutually respectful. I am not advocating selling your soul to the devil or tolerating abuse. What I AM advocating is taking a second look before you throw the baby out with the bathwater - seeing if you have the emotional strength and strength of character to be more magnanimous - under your own terms. Sometimes people will cooperate - sometimes they won't, and that's their choice which you can in turn respect.
When I passed out from horrific pain from what turned out to be endometriosis so bad, half of my insides were stuck together, she said, "I don't think it's anything. I think something is going on with you, in your head." There I am, a month later in the hospital getting filleted down the middle to the tune of 18 staples, and she didn't even show up for two days. Yep, that twisted appendix and that huge, burrito-sized endometrioma were all in my head, all right. Doctors originally thought I had ovarian cancer and were ready to give me 3 to 6 months.
When she called asking me for information on symptoms she was having, I tapped into my considerable network of information and specialists and helped her.
When she complained about men, I listened. When she complained about being broke, I offered her money. When she had no hot water and nowhere to do her laundry after Sandy, I opened my doors to her. When her son died, I was there at the hospital by her side, and I was there in her darkest, most desperate hour.
Never--and I can honestly say never--have I ever asked for any kind of emergency assistance from her in my entire life, in part because she did manage to mess up her own so badly. She did tell me I could stay with her in her 1BR apartment as a way of trying to get me to relocate last summer, but her dog would eat my pet the minute my back was turned, and she got extremely offended that I didn't see the feasibility in that, or in attempting to work under those conditions. So because I didn't do what she wanted me to do, when I did reach out, that is what I received.
No. She is a beyotch, and it's too bad I'm an atheist, because if I believed in a hell, I'd say she could go rot in it.
So what I hear you saying is that she did not respect your parameters, even with repeated attempts by you to move toward a more mature and mutually respectful relationship. Your response is understandable to me. I'm not advocating tolerating abuse.
So what I hear you saying is that she did not respect your parameters, even with repeated attempts by you to move toward a more mature and mutually respectful relationship. Your response is understandable to me. I'm not advocating tolerating abuse.
Pretty much.
And that's just the big stuff. There were seven years of digs, petty jealousies, high school mentality sibling rivalry, and so on that I rose above, time after time, year after year. But no. No jury in the world. Indeed, that's what my friends hammered home. One said, "So maybe you lost your temper and said a few hurtful things. What are you supposed to do, let people say whatever crappy thing they want to say to you and treat you whatever crappy way they want to treat you, year after year, and you're just supposed to take it? No. NO. They had it coming." ("They" because I told my ex-SO off about a month before. Same deal.)
See why I love my friends?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
