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Nice statement, but no sale. Sometimes you have to realize a lost cause and cut your losses. I did it with my father, who is no longer living. I have no regrets. By the time, he had gotten to his deathbed my heart and mind were not able to risk another disappointment and cause even more damage. Any relationship where I'm always accessing damage or "retraining" people is not worth it to me.
Nice statement but just be sure you apply your same standards to yourself. That's all I'm saying. I'm not asking anyone to justify or defend their choices with the people in their lives. I know nothing at all about your relationship with your father.
I see more posts about friends cutting out friends who have emotional problems or need help in some way or over something I perceive as petty and that makes me sad.
When it comes to family, i see more posts by people who let family emotionally abuse them. The "but they are family" rationalization is no excuse. Life is too short to take mental abuse so that you have someone to "spend holidays with."
I see where you're coming from to some extent. I myself posted a question about a relationship with a friend who I was considering cutting out of my life entirely. As I've stated numerous times, I am not saying that it's always wrong to cut people out of your life. I've done it myself.
When it comes to dysfunctional families, I have more mixed feelings. I realize that we may have to cut immediate family right out of our lives as well, if they are abusive and do not respect our boundaries. But there are sometimes other alternatives - and when it comes to immediate family, we have to realize that often WE are as dysfunctional as they are. A relationship takes two people. I'm just saying "let's fix ourselves" before we cut ties entirely in some cases. We have a clearer perspective when we've cleaned our own house and are looking at them from a healthier point of view. Now - to maintain that health, sometimes we DO have to cut people, even immediate family, out of our lives. But - sometimes there are other alternatives. How do we know how they will react or respond if we've never tried those alternatives.
I guess I'm saying that often I see "Cut 'em loose!" as the FIRST option given when I think the first option should often be, "Fix yourself and then lay out your healthy parameters and give them the opportunity to respond."
Obviously I'm not talking about situations that actually involve imminent danger or putting others in danger.
I have not spoken to my mother four times in my adult life, the longest was 9 years. In each case, I went back to her to try and fix our problems, each time was a mistake, as she is an alcoholic/narcissist who won't stop drinking, she is toxic and cares about no one but herself. There are some people that cannot be retrained and some relationships that can't be fixed...period.
Without delving too deeply, I forgave my mom. Most people in my shoes wouldn't. At the same time, forgiving her seemed to make my boundaries a bit malleable at times. Do I regret not ever severing ties from her completely? No. I see her as a flawed human being. Given the circumstances that had I grown up in the conditions she had, I'm not sure what I would do.
Some people don't have the capacity or insight to look within themselves. And, even though they are flawed individuals, no one's perfect. We all make mistakes. We all have times in our lives when our judgment hasn't been the sharpest. And, no doubt, some people are batsh*t insane. But, does that mean that I have to take it personally or internalize what they do? To some degree I can see how dysfunctional patterns and behaviors can have an influence on us. Key thing is to put things into perspective, detach and make your own choices for what changes you want to make for yourself personally, and how you envision your ideal healthy life to be.
I also believe in addressing people's personal strengths and hoping for a better tomorrow.
Communication with someone who's hurt you tremendously can be really tough, but life's too short. And, sometimes, it's about being the bigger person and like in your situation: setting appropriate boundaries and having them respected.
It's unfortunate that sometimes we are the parentified adult, even as kids growing up.
You just added a very profound statement. Thank you for this eloquent post. You perfectly expressed some of my own feelings about my mother.
I want my own children to forgive me for some of the really stupid decisions I made which impacted them over the years. For instance, choosing an abusive man to be their father - a man I eventually had to divorce in order to protect my children. I would never have chosen that particular man if I hadn't been raised in such an emotionally abusive crazy house myself. But I was an adult when I married him - an adult who hadn't worked through my own issues. I had the inner strength to eventually realize that I was making very poor decisions based on my totally dysfunctional upbringing and my warped sense of self worth and what a marriage partnership SHOULD be - like so many other people before me, I sought those familiar dynamics, and in my case it was "life as a sane person married to a crazy person." It was what I saw modeled in my childhood home, and what I was familiar with, comfortable with even. So, since I hadn't "fixed myself" I perpetrated it in my own first marriage - and complicated that by bringing children into the world - children who didn't deserve to be raised by a crazy person any more than I had deserved being raised by one.
Fortunately I eventually pulled my head out of the sand and said, "No more - this just isn't right." I worked on myself within the marriage and gave him the opportunity to respond positively to my reasonable boundaries - which he didn't do. So yes, I cut him out of our lives - as entirely as possible.
All of this greatly impacted my kids' lives. I eventually did the right thing, but not before my decisions hurt them on many levels.
My mother, for whatever reasons (personally I think it's because she is truly mentally ill) is one of the people you describe - a person who cannot look within herself and fix herself. My gosh, she is 75 years old and to her credit, while she hasn't addressed her own issues responsibly, she has at least realized that if she wants a relationship with me and with my adult kids and THEIR kids, she has to rein it in and behave herself, which she does about 80 percent of the time (when I was growing up and unable to grasp the concept of personal boundaries, she "behaved herself" about 20 percent of the time).
But - in addition to her mental illness, she was raised by a mentally ill mother. My mother had a tragic childhood - far worse than mine. And I know that she DID try to give me a better childhood than she had. If I'm honest, I have to say she simply wasn't a great mom - and still isn't a great mom. But she sincerely does make the effort.
As for allowing her access to my kids and grandkids - I find it's the perfect opportunity for them to gain some understanding, some perspective, and some empathy. I do protect my kids and grandkids when it comes to my mother - for instance, just a couple of years ago, when my daughter was home on leave from the Air Force (and I am very proud of her for her military service, by the way), my mother was encouraging her to get out of the military and started calling our military "baby killers." Now listen - it's one thing to encourage your granddaughter to pursue another career that doesn't involve deployments to a war zone - it's altogether another thing to accuse her of being part of a baby killing operation! So I IMMEDIATELY stood up and said, "Mom, you're out of line. The rest of us are very proud of _____ for her military service and we believe that the military is an honorable career overall. If you cannot show respect for her accomplishments and her service to our country, you will have to leave my house."
She shut right up.
Now - that's a difficult line to toe. It wasn't a pleasant showdown. And this example shows how "our work is never done" when it comes to an emotionally damaged and/or mentally ill family member. But...you can ask my daughter if you don't believe me...my daughter was proud of me for standing up like that. And my daughter also loves my mother and knows she's weird and will occasionally say bizarre things - but she's seen in action how to handle it. Does my daughter wish I had frozen my mother out of our lives? NO. She loves both my parents. And I'm able to teach her how to enforce boundaries with difficult people.
I have not spoken to my mother four times in my adult life, the longest was 9 years. In each case, I went back to her to try and fix our problems, each time was a mistake, as she is an alcoholic/narcissist who won't stop drinking, she is toxic and cares about no one but herself. There are some people that cannot be retrained and some relationships that can't be fixed...period.
Right - and I'm not talking about those people and those situations. Never have I said "never give up on someone!" Actually I've stated the opposite and given examples of people I consider toxic that I've cut out of my life.
Those aren't the situations we're talking about.
Just be sure you're not as toxic and self centered as she is. Not saying that you are. What I'm saying is hold yourself to the same standards you hold your mother to, and things will probably be fine in your other relationships.
I think my biggest gripe, now that I process all this, is when I hear people talking about "cutting toxic people out of their lives" and I look at them and think, "Wow, you're no saint yourself - you're as self centered as the person you're cutting out of your life in fact!" Often they even JUSTIFY their own behavior by saying it's emotional damage from the abuse they endured from that other person. Well, stop the cycle then. "Get your own head straight before you insist on everyone else's head being on straight"is what I'm saying to them.
I think you have raised really excellent points KathrynAragon.
However it's hard to go from getting-your-buttons-pushed to suddenly-drawing-boundaries in a clear and healthy way. Especially with parents!!! Sometimes a period of time and distance is needed to accomplish that. Time to strengthen up emotionally, do some important healing, and come back to the relationship at a later time.
For example, my mother and I have always had a rocky relationship. I stopped talking to her for maybe 8 years or so (except when absolutely necessary.) My sisters became furious with me and consequently quit speaking to me. Needless to say, it sucked.
But a few years ago..When I began interacting with my mother again, she treated me really really nicely. She is nicer to me than she is to my sisters. She doesn't pull any crap, because she knows I'm not afraid to cut her out of my life again. (I know it sounds mean, but I didn't do it to hurt her. I did it to protect myself.) Now things are so much better! She has even expressed happiness to my sisters and to me that we have a good relationship now. We're not best friends or anything, but we are civil and respectful and even have a few laughs together.
And this part:
Without those years away from my mother, I probably wouldn't have gained the horrifying realization that I was kind of a jerk to her too!
Bingo. You get exactly what I'm talking about.
Congrats on getting your relationship with your mom under control. I know it took a lot of strength on your part. Wow, when I was reading about your 8 year "moratorium" I was thinking about how difficult my 3 year one with my mother was. But like you, I consider that time of healing and regrouping to be worth the effort and like your mom, mine responded positively overall.
I am glad it has all worked out for you Kathryn. But I have an absolute clear conscious and know I made the right decision for me, my kids and even my parents. So in that sense, it worked out for me doing it my way.
I'm glad your conscience is clear! Sometimes cutting people out is truly the best option. But sometimes it's not - that's all I'm saying. Each situation is different and special and involves lots of nuances. There's no "one size fits all" except for the adage of treating others as you want to be treated, and holding yourself to the same standards you hold others to. I think if we hold firm to those principles we can make choices that are grounded in truth and health.
Nice statement, but no sale. Sometimes you have to realize a lost cause and cut your losses. I did it with my father, who is no longer living. I have no regrets. By the time, he had gotten to his deathbed my heart and mind were not able to risk another disappointment and cause even more damage. Any relationship where I'm always accessing damage or "retraining" people is not worth it to me.
By the way, what specifically did I state that you're "not buying?" How does anything I posted conflict with your decision to cut your losses with your dad?
I'm glad your conscience is clear! Sometimes cutting people out is truly the best option. But sometimes it's not - that's all I'm saying. Each situation is different and special and involves lots of nuances. There's no "one size fits all" except for the adage of treating others as you want to be treated, and holding yourself to the same standards you hold others to. I think if we hold firm to those principles we can make choices that are grounded in truth and health.
Right. So your situation isnt nessesarly right for anyone else and it's impossible to apply your situation to other people's isn't even a fair suggestion. All you can do is support people through their own decision making process.
If I treated other people the way my parents treated me, well then I was expect they wouldn't want to be involved with me. DNA or not.
I'm really feeling like you are telling us you are more enlightened and healed for having contact. Its coming across preachy, maybe driven by anxiety over proving the decision wise before this upcoming holiday.
Honestly, I would never expose my kids to one of my dads paranoid rages, not even for the 7 seconds it takes to walk to the door. Not to mention, he chases. I don't find anything healthy in teaching my children from that situation.
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