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If you find it "rude and condescending," it's very likely that you were projecting "quite often rudely said" when it was nothing of the sort, especially in the South.
Judge much? It has been said rudely to me many times especially in the South even when I didn't speak!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoot N Annie
Dear Sir - I find it amusing yet troubling that you find it "rude and condescending" when people are merely trying to be polite.
Have a nice day
Hoot
Well that is rather rude. Calling a woman a sir is beyond rude. Being called ma'am frequently is NOT done to be polite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver
That's more on you than it is on the ma'amer.
I mean, if you get this hostile towards someone who is simply trying his or her level best to be polite, then seek professional help. Maybe lithium.
Who's hostile? I wasn't. I just said don't ever call me ma'am. Many folks do NOT say it to be polite! Many are really snarky when they say it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT
The times I hear it said rudely it's usually in response to the way in which I've said something. Usually it's because I've told someone to do something instead of asking them to do something, or I've used a tone that is too abrupt and 'northern'. That's on me and I accept that, even though it can get frustrating at times. I've been down south for what seems like a hundred years and I'm STILL learning the nuances, but I realize that I need to adapt to the customs here, not the other way round.
When I did live in the South, I did learn the local customs and went along with them. I was VERY eager to relocate and wanted to for over a decade when it was finally possible. I had ZERO interest in ever moving again. I built my dream house! I was treated very rudely by many women after they found out where I was from. I had not even spoken to them! I was being introduced to them at a quilt guild by my aunt. That was my first introduction to the hostility towards northerners.
The second and far worse one was when I was told by a professor to take I95 back home every single day of the semester. That got REALLY old. She didn't like me. Why? Beats me! I had great grades, attended class, paid attention, did the assignments, participated in class, helped other students, etc. She didn't like any Yankee in her class. I'll never forget her daily, "Ma'am, you need to take 95 home today." Funny thing....I95 isn't anywhere near where I'm from!
I HATE being called sweetie and honey as well. They're condescending. Not to mention frequently used my creepy old men who seem like pervs.
I am in New York two-three times a year doing business with clients up there. I have a largish healthcare client in Boston. One in Baltimore, too. Weird how no one up there has ever deemed me to be some semi-illiterate hick.
How would you know? It's not like they're going to say it to your face.
Can we agree to put those with extreme attitudes on either end of the spectrum into the same category? That the idea of using ma'am defines one as a "Southern hick" is just as offensive as those calling out others for not using it as "Northern/Western boors" who weren't raised properly?
How would you know? It's not like they're going to say it to your face.
Well, given how they've been my clients for years -- and they're no fools -- I'm pretty sure they don't consider me a toothless hillbilly. However, I'm also sure that they would be averse to snobs who indulge in lazy stereotypes to compensate for their insecurities.
In a white collar business environment on the left coast or right coast, ma'am is a banned word. The only usage is when people are being intentionally sexist, rude, or condescending. No different than using a term of endearment like "honey" or "sweetheart". You don't address a woman with an elite university education and 6 figure career track with terms of endearment. That's Mad Men "sweetie, fetch me some coffee".
If you think it's "trying to be polite", it's pretty clear that's not your environment. South of the Mason-Dixon Line or from ex-military? Sure. In a Northeast Corridor or Bay Area office tower? Nope, unless you want to come off as some semi-literate hick from the south.
I don't consider "Ma'am" to be the same as "honey," "hon," "sweetie," or any similar term. It's not. It implies a degree of social hierarchy with which I am not completely comfortable, but it is not the stuff of "Mad Men." "Honey" is the woman you ask to fetch you coffee. "Ma'am" is the one who sends you to fetch it.
As for "semi-literate hicks from the south," I was not born and raised here, and I'm sure some of my new neighbors find me a bit too abrupt or direct in my speech, but I would never, never lump them all together under such an unflattering label. I know some folks down here - very nice ones, too - who would put your 6 figure career trackers to shame. If anyone is being condescending right now, I would have to say that you are. There are uneducated and uncouth people in all corners of the nation.
Now there's a remark worthy of the legendary ignorance of the Hanks film character. I say "Ma'am," and I live in Oregon. I have a bachelor's degree and speak several languages. Not very many people I know would equate me with Forrest Gump; I've only been to the South a few times, and am never going back if I can help it.
Maybe some women do not like being called "Ma'am," but it's still a polite term of address for a woman and it doesn't say anything about the speaker. It doesn't even say that the speaker is fundamentally polite, as has been noted by a few posters, who have heard it used in a snide way.
I don't like it. I'm not comfortable with it. When introduced to a woman, I hope to hell she doesn't put her hand out, because I then have to shake it. But truth told, I wish she had not. I'm perfectly comfortable meeting a woman without touching her, and I wish she would not want to touch me.
Hmmm, interesting. Not sure what to say to that, as shaking hands is the polite thing to do when introduced in the US, so I can't imagine not shaking hands with any new person I meet on a business level. When it's social, I can just say 'nice to meet you' & not touch. I can understand the touching thing, as a poster below you said he lightly kisses a woman he is introduced to, on the cheek & I would find that extremely presumptuous, invasive & bordering on sexual harassment (in the USA), as I certainly would not allow a stranger to kiss me.
It's the implication that somehow it's acceptable for men to shake hands as a greeting, but not women, that's troubling. I can understand not wanting to touch any stranger (and I'm not even a germaphobe), but I'd rather not. IDK that she "wants" to touch you. It's just considered the acceptable greeting in the US. I'd rather not shake hands with anyone I don't know & I certainly am not ok with kisses from strangers, but it's how we do it here & it would be rude to not shake hands in a business situation. In fact, it could seriously harm your business relationship. I think I'd prefer the Japanese tradition of a slight bow - no touching at all. I just don't understand why it would be okay to shake a man's hand & not a woman's.
Hmmm, interesting. Not sure what to say to that, as shaking hands is the polite thing to do when introduced in the US, so I can't imagine not shaking hands with any new person I meet on a business level. When it's social, I can just say 'nice to meet you' & not touch. I can understand the touching thing, as a poster below you said he lightly kisses a woman he is introduced to, on the cheek & I would find that extremely presumptuous, invasive & bordering on sexual harassment (in the USA), as I certainly would not allow a stranger to kiss me.
It's the implication that somehow it's acceptable for men to shake hands as a greeting, but not women, that's troubling. I can understand not wanting to touch any stranger (and I'm not even a germaphobe), but I'd rather not. IDK that she "wants" to touch you. It's just considered the acceptable greeting in the US. I'd rather not shake hands with anyone I don't know & I certainly am not ok with kisses from strangers, but it's how we do it here & it would be rude to not shake hands in a business situation. In fact, it could seriously harm your business relationship. I think I'd prefer the Japanese tradition of a slight bow - no touching at all. I just don't understand why it would be okay to shake a man's hand & not a woman's.
There are several cultures and religious traditions that forbid touching a member of the opposite sex who is not a family member.
I don't want to be called ma'am, Miss, sweetie, sugar or honey. Saying "excuse me" to get my attention is good enough.
Saying "excuse me" or just plain old " hi or hello" doesn't make me feel old or feel that the clerk/waitress/teller is condescending.
Ok so let's put you at the cash register.......
You are purchasing a dress. I greet you with Hi. I ring up your purchase. You insert the credit card. I need to see your driver's license and the card per company rules. It is kind of rude to just say....I need to see your driver's license without addressing you in some way. Why would I say "Excuse me when you are already looking at me? Hi or Hello does not work either, been there done that when you came up. A nice....Ma'am, May I see your ID, would be appropriate since I do not know you. I am not your friend.
I am still in shock that you think ma'am is condescending. If you truly think people are using it to put you in your place or cut you down perhaps you need to look at how you progect yourself to others.
You are purchasing a dress. I greet you with Hi. I ring up your purchase. You insert the credit card. I need to see your driver's license and the card per company rules. It is kind of rude to just say....I need to see your driver's license without addressing you in some way. Why would I say "Excuse me when you are already looking at me? Hi or Hello does not work either, been there done that when you came up. A nice....Ma'am, May I see your ID, would be appropriate since I do not know you. I am not your friend.
How in the world is that any more polite than saying "Thank you - I'll need to see your driver's license to complete the transaction"
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