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I honestly don't understand how this will be any different then a Martz Bus on railroad tracks...Someone explain to me how exactly this boondoggle will attract jobs and desirable new residents? If the Martz buses are not bringing thousands of people and thousands of jobs, how will a slower, less convenient, and probably more expensive passenger train be any different? Harrisburg has Amtrack. Why hasn't thier population exploded? Port Jervis is still a small town. Why hasn't it become the next northeast big city? Any population and job growth would extend only over the border into the Stroudsburg region (if there was any at all). Who would want to commute and extra hour to Scranton? At least the pocono's are desirable to big city commuters because or the woods and rural aspect, but what does a small, old, rust belt city like Scranton have to offer that one would want to give up NYC for? Passenger service to our region died for a reason. If this is not gonna be high speed, I simply do not see any benefit besides a feather in Scranton's cap that helps it look like a more modern, "metro" area...but besides that, I just don't understand this claim that all these jobs and people are just waiting to move here by the droves and turn us into some economic powerhouse....PLEASE!!!
Look along the Main / Keystone line for the Population / Job growth over the years. Companies like Rail lines more then bus lines , and so does the bulk of people. It will take time , but you should see the results. Not every line sees growth , although the Port Jervis line has seen growth towards Middletown. If you want to be High Speed , your going to have to wait 10 years after this completed.....
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Originally Posted by toobusytoday
This ^ is the the question I have too. Why build a train if there's a bus that's already serving the same purpose? Is it oversubscribed?
I personally love to ride on trains, but for commuting purposes I would choose whatever mode of transportation would be least expensive and more convenient. Why would people choose the train over a bus if the train cost more? And if the cost was subsidized to attract riders, wouldn't that be unfair to the bus company?
The Train will free up capacity on the Roads , theres an Estimated 130,000 who commute from Eastern PA into Jersey. Majority by Bus , which is putting a strain on the PA Bus Terminal. In Western Jersey Developers in Philpsburg and Easton,PA are waiting for service so they can integrate there large scale plans into the line. Most of the Middle Class who uses the buses would switch to the train in a heartbeat , even with increase. The Lehigh Valley would probably see a few companies relocate , and the Urban Areas grow. NJT Rail ridership grew by 20,000 last year , despite cost increases .....if the ride is more comfortable ppl will pay for it. The Current situation for the Lehigh Valley is getting bad , Intercity buses are standing room only and the roads can't seem to handle it anymore. In Western Jersey , alot of PA are driving over and taking the train , which is causing issues for the local roads.... The Demand is there , the Question is the funding? I think once people understand the concept of a train or try commuting they become more warm to the idea. But it appears the only people who are against this are the people who don't commute or are afraid of the typical NIMBY garbage thrown out. Business leaders , local / Regional Govts , and Commuters are for these lines , thats a decent amount of people. The People living near the tracks also realize the benefit from there property values climbing due to the train. The Bus does not do that....
Companies like Rail lines more then bus lines , and so does the bulk of people.
Not necessarily. New Jersey Transit's 551 bus line from Philadelphia to Atlantic City carries plenty of passengers and brings in a profit. NJT also runs a rail line between Philadelphia and Atlantic City that only recovers 25% of its operating expenses. The difference is that the bus only makes two stops and then goes straight down the AC expressway, while the train makes numerous stops and takes longer. Even with similar fares, people choose the bus if it is more convenient.
Not necessarily. New Jersey Transit's 551 bus line from Philadelphia to Atlantic City carries plenty of passengers and brings in a profit. NJT also runs a rail line between Philadelphia and Atlantic City that only recovers 25% of its operating expenses. The difference is that the bus only makes two stops and then goes straight down the AC expressway, while the train makes numerous stops and takes longer. Even with similar fares, people choose the bus if it is more convenient.
Well the reason why the AC line isn't used is due to the timetables. NJT could give a rats ass about south Jersey's Rail network. So they get fewer trains , and thus lower ridership. Even though the line is faster then driving or the bus.... I have to see if that bus makes $$$ , Transit and Roads are not supposed to run on profit....or expected to. You also cannot compare the any South Jersey line to this line. North and Central Jersey are given more trains and better service. This line and Lehigh line will do very well... We will see , PA is waiting to see the results of lines extensions to Andover / Philpsburg. I have a strong feeling that both line extensions will add over 40,000 to NJT going by what the county and private groups say. In Any Event , i'll just be happy if they restored the lines in NJ , ive learned not to get my hopes up about PA....
How about the ability to afford a walkable and sustainable lifestyle on a thrift store budget?
LOL, you could post a bronze plaque at the station saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to shop at Wal-Mart..."
Kidding aside, it's an interesting strategy. It certainly worked for NYC 100 years ago. There are a few challenges with deliberately trying to attract the "thrift shop budget" crowd. You might be flooded with people who need a lot of social services and don't contribute much in the way of taxes. You might lose current residents who don't like the direction their city is going. You might see an increase in crime. If some of these low income people move to Scranton and then can't pay even the lower rents in Scranton, you might see an increase in homeless people.
OTOH, it might work out just fine. Scranton could get the benefit of more residents (and the trains), and NYC might kick in lots of $$$ toward more trains once they realized they could use it to entice low income residents to leave the state.
Just remember that promoting your city as a place that appeals to the thrift shop crowd is like getting a tattoo. Be certain that you want it, because once you get it, it's hard to remove.
LOL, you could post a bronze plaque at the station saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to shop at Wal-Mart..."
Kidding aside, it's an interesting strategy. It certainly worked for NYC 100 years ago. There are a few challenges with deliberately trying to attract the "thrift shop budget" crowd. You might be flooded with people who need a lot of social services and don't contribute much in the way of taxes. You might lose current residents who don't like the direction their city is going. You might see an increase in crime. If some of these low income people move to Scranton and then can't pay even the lower rents in Scranton, you might see an increase in homeless people.
OTOH, it might work out just fine. Scranton could get the benefit of more residents (and the trains), and NYC might kick in lots of $$$ toward more trains once they realized they could use it to entice low income residents to leave the state.
Just remember that promoting your city as a place that appeals to the thrift shop crowd is like getting a tattoo. Be certain that you want it, because once you get it, it's hard to remove.
We already have all of the detractors, might as well get the jobs at least. Scranton is not what it was 100 years ago, 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago. It's something completely different, and it's here to stay.
LOL, you could post a bronze plaque at the station saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to shop at Wal-Mart..."
Kidding aside, it's an interesting strategy. It certainly worked for NYC 100 years ago. There are a few challenges with deliberately trying to attract the "thrift shop budget" crowd. You might be flooded with people who need a lot of social services and don't contribute much in the way of taxes. You might lose current residents who don't like the direction their city is going. You might see an increase in crime. If some of these low income people move to Scranton and then can't pay even the lower rents in Scranton, you might see an increase in homeless people.
OTOH, it might work out just fine. Scranton could get the benefit of more residents (and the trains), and NYC might kick in lots of $$$ toward more trains once they realized they could use it to entice low income residents to leave the state.
Just remember that promoting your city as a place that appeals to the thrift shop crowd is like getting a tattoo. Be certain that you want it, because once you get it, it's hard to remove.
Those the same NIMBY fear mongering tactics that hold no water. Crime won't go up because of the train , the poor can not afford to use it.... after zone 3 , poor people find it harder to pay for the train. The Middle Class will benefit from the train , the trains outside the Urban areas in NJ are used by the Middle Class....poor people use buses. I think you should look into the demographics of the current areas with Train before you bash the train you might get... Towns and cities with Interstate access tend to have higher crime , this has been proven...
Those the same NIMBY fear mongering tactics that hold no water. Crime won't go up because of the train , the poor can not afford to use it.... after zone 3 , poor people find it harder to pay for the train. The Middle Class will benefit from the train , the trains outside the Urban areas in NJ are used by the Middle Class....poor people use buses. I think you should look into the demographics of the current areas with Train before you bash the train you might get... Towns and cities with Interstate access tend to have higher crime , this has been proven...
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to bash the train, I was responding to these previous posts:
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"but what does a small, old, rust belt city like Scranton have to offer that one would want to give up NYC for?!!!"
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"How about the ability to afford a walkable and sustainable lifestyle on a thrift store budget?"
which inferred that people would move to Scranton for the cheap rents and then take the train to work in NYC. But, you're right that I don't know the demographics of the area, and I have no idea if poor people would actually take the train or the bus. Or if they would have any interest in moving out to Scranton just for the cheaper rents, and then having a very long ride to work every day.
Scranton would become two things; one, a blue-collar work force geared towards maintenance of the ROW and muscle for the manufacturing and warehousing/transfer depot base that will surely build up along the line. Things come in by rail, go to the deopt, and then are distributed by the large highway infrastructure we already have. Two, we become a bedroom community for NYC. This means middle class people who have college degrees, who are instantly now upper middle class locally due to the high wages in the city. Poor people won't ride a train 2 hrs one way to work at a Rite Aid. They will work locally or collect assitance.
The drugs are already here, the blight is already here, the poor are already here. What's to lose?
What I'm wondering is where the slums will be created. Over time, property values will go up in certain areas, which will push the working poor out of current neighborhoods and forcibly create new slums. I think we could see either the city be rebuilt, with crime and poverty pushed to the boroughs, or the other way around. I have to think the boroughs may fair better though, with Scranton taking the hit.
Last edited by scrantonluna; 05-09-2011 at 12:45 PM..
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to bash the train, I was responding to these previous posts:
which inferred that people would move to Scranton for the cheap rents and then take the train to work in NYC. But, you're right that I don't know the demographics of the area, and I have no idea if poor people would actually take the train or the bus. Or if they would have any interest in moving out to Scranton just for the cheaper rents, and then having a very long ride to work every day.
Well then you'll be seeing an influx of Younger Middle Class couples looking to Escape...NYC Metro. Poor people will be priced out eventually , were seeing that happen in parts of Urban Jersey , the Blight will start to disappear and be replaced with Homes and Businesses. It won't happen over night , but with in a decade you should see your region turn around.
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Originally Posted by scrantonluna
Scranton would become two things; one, a blue-collar work force geared towards maintenance of the ROW and muscle for the manufacturing and warehousing/transfer depot base that will surely build up along the line. Things come in by rail, go to the deopt, and then are distributed by the large highway infrastructure we already have. Two, we become a bedroom community for NYC. This means middle class people who have college degrees, who are instantly now upper middle class locally due to the high wages in the city. Poor people won't ride a train 2 hrs one way to work at a Rite Aid. They will work locally or collect assitance.
The drugs are already here, the blight is already here, the poor are already here. What's to lose?
You be surprised , but it doesn't take an Army to restore and run a Railroad...like it used to. The Yard with probably be near steamtown , at least one of the 2 PA yards... I don't see why people have an Issue with this line or the Lehigh line if poor people can't afford it....only the Middle Class. It seems that people who don't use Transit or Rail complain the loudest , while the people who transit and trains are silent.....that needs to change.... Drugs are everywhere , there up here in the Suburbs....if people want them there going to get them. Drugs will always be there no matter the type of area....Rich , poor , Middle Class.... The Suburbs have never been a safe haven from drugs...
You be surprised , but it doesn't take an Army to restore and run a Railroad...like it used to. The Yard with probably be near steamtown , at least one of the 2 PA yards... I don't see why people have an Issue with this line or the Lehigh line if poor people can't afford it....only the Middle Class. It seems that people who don't use Transit or Rail complain the loudest , while the people who transit and trains are silent.....that needs to change.... Drugs are everywhere , there up here in the Suburbs....if people want them there going to get them. Drugs will always be there no matter the type of area....Rich , poor , Middle Class.... The Suburbs have never been a safe haven from drugs...
PA will cheap out and will run on the same old rails that have been down since the 40s. That means you're going to have a steady stream of rail work, and that includes clearing the old lines, laying new spurs, construction of new structures along the line, etc. With all of the gas drilling work in NEPA, you will also see further involvement with rail service in terms of equipment and product delivery.
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