Senate Bill 5 (Cortland: landscaping, utilities, vacation)

[buzzards27]

and your point is? oh wait, your point is you don't want to talk about the koch brothers... fact is they are out to destroy our government and possibly our country, that is their stated goal... and you are defending them.

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

now you're copying & pasting Greenpeace agitprop without attribution. Are they aware of this?


Winning!

tell me, you see and copy right on the pdf you are point at?

LOL, from Greenpeace,

"For articles and text

If it's © Greenpeace, you're free to use it for personal or educational use. Please include a note saying "Source: Greenpeace (http://www.greenpeace.org/usa)" and reproducing any byline or copyright information in the original."

No CC no attribution is required... but it is good to see you defending Greenpeace, even if you're wrong.

[cyberdasher]

Drool : Feel free to believe any of that! I hope you've done some of your own research, including some that run contrary to your assumptions.

Factchecking careless budget references is NOT taking sides and benefits everyone interested in mature debate. That it benefits Kasich sometimes is not my problem.

[cyberdasher]

Originally Posted by buzzards27

and your point is? oh wait, your point is you don't want to talk about the koch brothers... fact is they are out to destroy our government and possibly our country, that is their stated goal...

No CC no attribution is required... but it is good to see you defending Greenpeace, even if you're wrong.

Buzz -

Koch brothers - not relevant to his thread. Start another?

Greenpeace - not talking about copyrights. Since you're just re-posting content without any links or attribution, we readers assume you don't have any original contribution to the debate.

[buzzards27]

but see that is where you are wrong, Koch Bros are behind the anti union movement. Without them there wouldn't be a union busting bill in Wisc or Ohio.

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

Buzz -

Koch brothers - not relevant to his thread. Start another?

Greenpeace - not talking about copyrights. Since you're just re-posting content without any links or attribution, we readers assume you don't have any original contribution to the debate.

[davery5872]

So I went to a town hall meeting with my local state house of representative last week. First of all, I would think if you were planning a meeting with the community about SB 5 you should probably know what is in the bill. I can't tell you how many times he said "I don't really know what is in the bill" or "are you sure it says that?". Really? Anyway, a member of the local board of education stood up at the meeting and said "we do not support this bill and we do not want this bill". It was also kind of funny when the representative's HS civics teacher stood up and said "I taught you better than this". I also saw an email from another local district in which the superintendent stated they do not support SB5. So if the teachers, community members (according to recent polls), and administrators do not want this, who is it for?

[cyberdasher]

Davery - what specific provisions makes most people mad? What parts of the bill make YOU irate?

[davery5872]

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

Davery - what specific provisions makes most people mad? What parts of the bill make YOU irate?

Here’s what I think. For a lot of years the teachers have had a seat at the table. With collective bargaining the teachers could discuss issues with administrators. Because a breakdown in collective bargaining could have consequences, administrators took this process serious. Over the years these issues included reducing class size, improving facilities, and weighing in on educational initiatives. I can’t tell how many times I hear of administrators coming back from a workshop and wanting to initiate something. It is the teacher who ask the questions, “is there data to back up these strategies?” or “since we already have a full workload, what are we eliminating?”. Teachers are a part of the educational process and collective bargaining respects that. In Ohio, with the direct vote for school levies, administrators have become politicians. With collective bargaining teachers can keep the administrators focused on education, not politics.

I think the administrators do not support SB 5 because it places them in a difficult position. They are looking at a bill they do not know how to implement. For example, merit pay. Does this mean teachers are paid bonuses for having their students pass standardized tests? If so, where does that money come from? If so, what about the teachers that teach subjects that do not have standardized tests? What about special needs teachers?

I’m not saying this could not be worked out in time, but SB5 becomes law 90 days after the governor signs it. No school district will have the system in place to comply with this law.

Another thing that bothers me is that this is being sold as a way to solve the financial crisis. We could debate the wisdom if this, but it ignores another question. If this is to solve the current crisis, what about five or ten years from now? This bill is permanent. When the crisis is over and good times are rolling again, then what? The public workers do not get to take that ride?

[Crew Chief]

Originally Posted by davery5872

Here’s what I think. For a lot of years the teachers have had a seat at the table. With collective bargaining the teachers could discuss issues with administrators. Because a breakdown in collective bargaining could have consequences, administrators took this process serious. Over the years these issues included reducing class size, improving facilities, and weighing in on educational initiatives. I can’t tell how many times I hear of administrators coming back from a workshop and wanting to initiate something. It is the teacher who ask the questions, “is there data to back up these strategies?” or “since we already have a full workload, what are we eliminating?”. Teachers are a part of the educational process and collective bargaining respects that. In Ohio, with the direct vote for school levies, administrators have become politicians. With collective bargaining teachers can keep the administrators focused on education, not politics.

I think the administrators do not support SB 5 because it places them in a difficult position. They are looking at a bill they do not know how to implement. For example, merit pay. Does this mean teachers are paid bonuses for having their students pass standardized tests? If so, where does that money come from? If so, what about the teachers that teach subjects that do not have standardized tests? What about special needs teachers?

I’m not saying this could not be worked out in time, but SB5 becomes law 90 days after the governor signs it. No school district will have the system in place to comply with this law.

Another thing that bothers me is that this is being sold as a way to solve the financial crisis. We could debate the wisdom if this, but it ignores another question. If this is to solve the current crisis, what about five or ten years from now? This bill is permanent. When the crisis is over and good times are rolling again, then what? The public workers do not get to take that ride?

Davery, here's my opinion/observation (and you know what they say about opinions; everyone has one and...) Short answer: The interests that want to privatize education for big profits (and turn teacher pay/benefits into yet another "Mcjob") are biding their time and trying to get the minority of Americans that will buy into the "teachers & their unions are the only problem with education in America" behind them.

I listen to a fair amount of talk radio (more because I want to see what the other side is up to than that I actually believe everything they say)... While I accept some of what the critics have to say about the current state of education in America, I'm frequently frustrated with the "cherry-picking" of the facts, misrepresentations and sometimes outright lies the media talking heads throw out to their faithful listeners. And for those listeners who aren't in the education field, this is an easy task...

I really don't like getting into the politics of it (there's enough blame to go around) but weakening the Dems via their union supporters has to be in the minds of some Republicans...

[cyberdasher]

Davery - that was the most cogent summary of concerns I've seen on here in a long time (although I probably have missed other well-formed points). I'll digest some of these points later today when I get some free time.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

Davery, here's my opinion/observation (and you know what they say about opinions; everyone has one and...) Short answer: The interests that want to privatize education for big profits (and turn teacher pay/benefits into yet another "Mcjob") are biding their time and trying to get the minority of Americans that will buy into the "teachers & their unions are the only problem with education in America" behind them.

Absolutely. And, we'll then have underperforming, diploma factories churning out unprepared individuals who can then be ushered right into underperforming, for-profit degree factories because they won't stand a chance at an accredited university. They'll then "graduate" with a mountain of government subsidized debt and a diminished set of skills to boot. The latter is already happening. When they get their meathooks firmly into compulsory education, the cycle will be complete.

Public enemy #1:
10 Northeast Ohio charter school boards sue White Hat Management firm | cleveland.com

Fortunately, real educators have their number. That is the whole rationale behind the SB5 end-around.

I listen to a fair amount of talk radio (more because I want to see what the other side is up to than that I actually believe everything they say)... While I accept some of what the critics have to say about the current state of education in America, I'm frequently frustrated with the "cherry-picking" of the facts, misrepresentations and sometimes outright lies the media talking heads throw out to their faithful listeners. And for those listeners who aren't in the education field, this is an easy task...

The state of education in America is what it is primarily because of the enormous amount of pressure being put upon it by for-profit-education lobbyists and the bastard legislators who take their contributions. There is NO interest in solving the problems on their end. They only seek to profit from it under the shroud of efficiency with a twist of altruism.

I really don't like getting into the politics of it (there's enough blame to go around) but weakening the Dems via their union supporters has to be in the minds of some Republicans...

Try almost all. This is entirely what all of this is about. As we'll soon see, none of this will have a thing to do with the state budget.