Senate Bill 5 (Republic: find a job, incomes, to live)

[cyberdasher]

Originally Posted by rrtechno

Using that logic, your employer is paying 100% of your pension (401K Social Security, etc).

But they don't do it with tax dollars.

Originally Posted by rrtechno

And expanding on that logic, it would appear that the taxpayer is also paying for the public employees food, clothing, utilities, furniture, gasoline, landscaping, etc. just as your employer is paying for your food, clothing, utilities, furniture, gasoline, landscaping, etc.

Yes, I'm familiar with this concept.

Originally Posted by rrtechno

And by the way, pension payments received by current retired public employees are not being paid by the taxpayers, but by returns on the investments made with the contributions made while the employee was working.

This is how all interest income works. . . but this interest is earned on contributions sourced from tax dollars. Nothing wrong with this, as taxpayers receive value somewhere in the chain. This difference cannot be ignored.

Originally Posted by rrtechno

Perhaps it is because a truly valid measure of the criteria that would qualify a teacher to receive merit pay has never been developed or revealed.

We've only had decades to work this out So we look for models to emulate and trial some methods.

[rrtechno]

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

But they don't do it with tax dollars.

Implying that wages earned by workers for an entity whose revenue source is tax dollars are somehow "different" than wages earned by workers for an entity whose revenue source is, for example, the sale of a manufactured product? If you are the cashier at the grocery store where I shop, those are "my" dollars paying your wages (based on your argument). Sorry, in my opinion, once someone earns wages for work performed or services provided, those wages belong to the worker, not the person who provided them.

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

We've only had decades to work this out So we look for models to emulate and trial some methods.

And where are all these models? The most commonly mentioned method for determining the appropriateness of a teacher earning "merit" pay is the student's performance on standardized tests. That sounds to me like saying that an assembler on a production line should be paid based on the ability of the fork lift driver to keep a supply of parts available.

[cyberdasher]

Originally Posted by rrtechno

Sorry, in my opinion, once someone earns wages for work performed or services provided, those wages belong to the worker, not the person who provided them.

I totally agree with you - from an employee's perspective, it's exactly the same! But their employers couldn't be more different.

Originally Posted by rrtechno

And where are all these models? The most commonly mentioned method for determining the appropriateness of a teacher earning "merit" pay is the student's performance on standardized tests. That sounds to me like saying that an assembler on a production line should be paid based on the ability of the fork lift driver to keep a supply of parts available.

Google some? Performance can only be measured by intelligent testing.

[Crew Chief]

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

Google some? Performance can only be measured by intelligent testing.

Sorry, Cyberdasher, but you're comparing apples and oranges. In the private sector, test takers have something to gain; such as landing a job, getting a promotion or some other tangible gain, school students (despite that we adults know better) have no real stake in the outcome of standardized or other tests taken at school. Sure, most know that it affects your grade. And most try to do well on tests. But there are plenty of students who don't care. Or have some other motivation to not do well on a test. In otherwords, they have no real stake in the outcome of the tests. And is comparing the scores from students in an AP course in some suburban school with those of a remedial class in an inner-city school really fair? Most of the suggestions from education's critics have merit...until you get into the details.

[buzzards27]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

Sorry, Cyberdasher, but you're comparing apples and oranges. In the private sector, test takers have something to gain; such as landing a job, getting a promotion or some other tangible gain, school students (despite that we adults know better) have no real stake in the outcome of standardized or other tests taken at school. Sure, most know that it affects your grade. And most try to do well on tests. But there are plenty of students who don't care. Or have some other motivation to not do well on a test. In otherwords, they have no real stake in the outcome of the tests. And is comparing the scores from students in an AP course in some suburban school with those of a remedial class in an inner-city school really fair? Most of the suggestions from education's critics have merit...until you get into the details.

There are other problems with basing teachers' pay on student test results, a few right off the top:

You are teaching to a test instead of educating. Raises would be based on which students used their short term memory the best...

If a teacher gets a bigger raise for better scores there is the temptation to "help" the students in ways that might not be ethical or legal. Cheating, allowing and/or encouraging cheating

Students knowing the teachers' raise is based on their performance could request things in exchange for better results that might not be ethical or legal. Blackmail by the students

Not saying most teachers or students would do anything unethical or illegal, just saying you are creating a situation where some could and would do things to improve their position...

[Crew Chief]

Absolutely, Buzzards27! And what about the administrator who assigns students to specific classes? He/she could stack a teacher's class roster with an inordinate amount of students who do well on tests. OR stack the roster with underachievers. Depending on what the administrator's ulterior motives were... That's what frustrates me so about the people who have all these great ideas to improve education but have NO experience other than sitting in a classroom facing the front of the room. And their idea that everything in the private sector can readily be converted to the classroom.

[buzzards27]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

...is comparing the scores from students in an AP course in some suburban school with those of a remedial class in an inner-city school really fair?

You know, you are on to something here, is the plan to give raises based on performance, knowing that intercity students will underachieve and their teachers will receive less compensation, if they are not receiving less already? More backhanded class warfare and a self-fulfilling prophecy revisited???

[cyberdasher]

Originally Posted by buzzards27

cheating, blackmail, etc

I don't think merit pay should be based solely on student test scores, and I doubt that it would. Some metrics I've seen over the years include giveback to the profession, volunteer hours, and personal professional development.

You're right that change sometimes creates secondary risks -- IMHO these situations seem like they could be easily policed.

[cyberdasher]

Crew Chief
In otherwords, they have no real stake in the outcome of the tests.

As has been the case since the beginning of time. Do you think that wouldn't be considered?

And is comparing the scores from students in an AP course in some suburban school with those of a remedial class in an inner-city school really fair?

That's never been fair. Rightly or wrongly, this unfairness is what we can expect from a state board concerned mainly with summary results.

And what about the administrator who assigns students to specific classes? He/she could stack a teacher's class roster with an inordinate amount of students who do well on tests. OR stack the roster with underachievers. Depending on what the administrator's ulterior motives were.

Any positive hypotheticals, or is this all going to be about your beef with management?

That's what frustrates me so about the people who have all these great ideas to improve education but have NO experience other than sitting in a classroom facing the front of the room. And their idea that everything in the private sector can readily be converted to the classroom.

No serious voices are talking about transferring entire market-based systems to public education.

[buzzards27]

Originally Posted by cyberdasher

I don't think merit pay should be based solely on student test scores, and I doubt that it would. Some metrics I've seen over the years include giveback to the profession, volunteer hours, and personal professional development.

You're right that change sometimes creates secondary risks -- IMHO these situations seem like they could be easily policed.

how many teacher do we have and how many "police" you going to need for that? who's going to fund these "police"? For every "Stand and Deliver" situation we'll have just as many "Cheaters".

wouldn't it be easier to adjust what we have slightly then to scrap the whole works and then discover the flaws after the fact. What kasich is doing is a radical change that has not been thought out well. I suggest there are and will be major problems with SB5, evidence by the fact that the house is still making changes...