Anti-Christmas Villans in Ashland (schools, to live in, rating)

[jrkliny]

Christmas trees or other religious symbols or other symbols associated with religious holidays and events are perfectly acceptable --- on private property. We have a Constitution and Bill of Rights which makes provisions for religious freedoms and separation of church and state. These freedoms prohibit promotion of religions. The Christmas trees and other symbols are totally inappropriate in public places. Some individuals have decided that a big menorah next to the Christmas tree somehow makes it all ok. Sorry but that just adds to the problem. We can decide that the middle eastern countries that support radical Islamism are somehow misguided but we have a hard time maintaining fair standards of religious freedoms for our own country. I support the Constitution and ideals of religious freedom. I am content to keep the Christmas decorations on my own property. I am already feeling bombarded with the Christmas decorations in the malls and shopping areas, not to mention TV and printed ads. Regardless of religious beliefs, maybe it is time we can hope for fewer Santas and Christmas trees and a bit more of the non-commercialized aspects of the holidays.

[Deezus]

Originally Posted by jrkliny

Christmas trees or other religious symbols or other symbols associated with religious holidays and events are perfectly acceptable --- on private property. We have a Constitution and Bill of Rights which makes provisions for religious freedoms and separation of church and state. These freedoms prohibit promotion of religions. The Christmas trees and other symbols are totally inappropriate in public places. Some individuals have decided that a big menorah next to the Christmas tree somehow makes it all ok

The individuals in the Supreme Court have ruled in the past that this is acceptable under the law--that Santa Claus and Christmas Trees are sufficiently secular to be allowed placement on public property.

Sorry but that just adds to the problem. We can decide that the middle eastern countries that support radical Islamism are somehow misguided but we have a hard time maintaining fair standards of religious freedoms for our own country.

If you are really serious about a holiday tree being comparable to the intolerance of radical Islam you might need to travel outside this country more often...

I support the Constitution and ideals of religious freedom. I am content to keep the Christmas decorations on my own property. I am already feeling bombarded with the Christmas decorations in the malls and shopping areas, not to mention TV and printed ads. Regardless of religious beliefs, maybe it is time we can hope for fewer Santas and Christmas trees and a bit more of the non-commercialized aspects of the holidays.

Do tell, what are the non-commercialized aspects of the holidays that are also non-religious? The modern secular depictions of Christmas Trees, Santa Claus, and snowmen are mostly commercial creations--the current image of Santa Claus in a red suit dates back to Thomas Nast in 1880. Would a wreath be acceptable to you? Perhaps just generic images of snowflakes?

The end result is that removing the tree as the result of the complaints of a couple families is the principal's decision's alone, there is no legalities involved here. My issue is that a few parents taking offense can see fit to end a long-standing tradition at an elementary school, that really doesn't appear to have any religious symbolism attached to it and that the majority of the families of children at the school support. The tree was decorated with lights and tags requesting gifts for needy children. But it's the same silly mentality that results in one complaining parent forcing the removal of a books such as Huckleberry Finn or Harry Potter from school libraries.

The tree was identified as a holiday "giving" tree--I fail to see how this reflects some brash promotion of Christianity in a school. There is no specific Christian symbolism attached to Christmas trees--the tradition comes from Northern European pre-Christian cultures, while the modern tradition developed in Germany and was became popularized in the US in the mid-1800s. The church accepted Christmas trees because of their popularity, however it was never tied into Christianity--in fact some churches were against the idea of the trees upon the arrival of them in America due to the Pagan connotation.

And I'm a radical agnostic, just like the rest of my family, so don't flame me that I'm trying to promote my own Christian beliefs. Christmas is a national holiday because it's part of our nation's tradition. If you take offense with it, you're free to do what I do on a daily basis when I'm offended by something--simply ignore it.

[Steve97415]

Originally Posted by Dual Citizen CA-OR

Given this progression, I don’t believe most Americans view Santa Claus as a religious figure.

But that's my point. This is a hullabaloo based on perception and emotional reaction, not findings of fact. Whose perception are you going to use as a basis for making public policy? Perception is informed by knowledge. If people knew that evergreen boughs were in use for celebrating the solstice in northern Europe many centuries before anyone in that part of the world took an interest in what babies were born in Israel, they might not see them as religious. Policy needs to be based on reason, not emotional reactivity. The fact that some people view a seasonal tradition as religiously symbolic doesn't mean that they should. Some people go out of their way to fabricate a mindset of feeling "excluded" and end up being the authors of their own discomfort. Perceptions based on ignorance don't need to be validated by changes to public policy.

[Silverfall]

Originally Posted by jrkliny

Regardless of religious beliefs, maybe it is time we can hope for fewer Santas and Christmas trees and a bit more of the non-commercialized aspects of the holidays.

I personally think it is the commercialized aspect of the holidays that has kept Christmas trees away from any religious tones. I have friends several friends that are atheists that have Christmas Trees because they have nothing to to do with Christ.

That's kind of the whole point that Jehovah's Witnesses make. These things aren't about religion which is why they don't celebrate the pagen aspects of the holidays with Santa, presents, and Christmas Trees.

[mrwumpus]

Imagine if you took this to its logical extreme and scoured history for each and every religious symbol, then tried to eliminate them from the Ashland classroom. You'd probably end up with absolutely nothing in the classroom exceed a dirt floor (unless there was a religion that held dirt sacred, then you'd have to eliminate that and just make the kids stay home, which might not be a bad idea at that stage in the game).

[esya]

You might be interested to know that there have been Supreme Court cases from at least the 1950s in the midwest which protected schoolchildren from school sanctioned Christmas observances, so it's hardly a politically new concept.

In fact, the separation of churches (religion) and state (taxpayer funded schools) dates to the US Constitution. The problem with allowing them in the door is that every single "observance" I have ever been to has been 9 parts Christian and 1 part "everything else". Since kids do not have a choice in being at school they are a captive audience.

Personal experiences: my second grader telling me, please don't write a note excusing me from going to the Catholic parish Christmas tree display with her public school class, because then she'd just have to sit in a chair in another classroom and be bored; another child bringing home a book of religious Christmas carols given to her by a substitute teacher with the admonishment that she needed to know the words, and how about the many many concerts I sat through for two hours for a single Channukah song? Humiliating. This doesn't even include the entire month of class work each and every year which features supposedly nonsectarian "Christmas" artwork, themes and busywork. I say baa, humbug. We are a nation founded on religious freedom, not coercion, and those kids can exercise it at home and in their religious community.

[Smiled]

I was wondering when the annual War On Christmas thing would start.

[Wicked Felina]

You found a Chahhukah song humilitating? Part of these observances teach tolerance and mostly I believe, they teach respect for different cultures. And that interaction can lead to understanding.

Unlike a lot of posters on CD seem to believe (mostly in Reglion/Politics), exposure to other customs and rituals teaches children how to respect each other and learn how to deal with things which they find "humulitating" or strange.

No child would be "offended" by participating in a celebration of Kwanza, christmas or Hannukah...and if they are, I am quite sure got the script from ignorant and intolerant parents.

I , nor any one I ever knew, ever saw a Christmas tree and yelled "holy cow, there's Jesus Christ!" I loved Easter egg hunts and finding hidden candy eggs...it was fun, playful and very social event for kids. No one ran around yelling "oh Jesus, where are you?"

Learning things other than what one would find in a trade school is a wonderful thing. Fortunately, I missed the point at which education and leaning required the use of video games. Apparently, any independent thought is now considered political coercion.

So, I guess we're becoming a nation pf technicians, rather than one of well-rounded educated people who can make our own, independent decisions. It's much easier to be told what to do and believe in.

[steel7]

The idiot principal may be related to mr.scrooge.

[Silverfall]

Originally Posted by esya

Personal experiences: my second grader telling me, please don't write a note excusing me from going to the Catholic parish Christmas tree display with her public school class, because then she'd just have to sit in a chair in another classroom and be bored; another child bringing home a book of religious Christmas carols given to her by a substitute teacher with the admonishment that she needed to know the words, and how about the many many concerts I sat through for two hours for a single Channukah song? Humiliating.

I don't understand why that would be humiliating.

I can also say that, at least here in Salem Oregon, the first grade holiday concert was very multicultural. One Christmas song (Silver Bells), one chanukah song, one Kwanza song, actually two Christmas songs because they sang Feliz Navidad...just did it in Spanish, and then some song from a Scandinavian country and I can't remember what else they did. My daughter who is in first grade this year is learning the same songs my son did two years ago. I volunteered in the classroom and got to hear the teacher talking with the kids about how other parts of the country and within the US people don't do things the same way. I thought it was a great lesson on tolerance and world history.

Each family filled out a form after Thanksgiving that talked about their family traditions at the holidays. Then the teacher would use those to talk about how people are different in class.

Life isn't neutral. Life isn't equal, nor is it fair. One of the best things we can do for our children is to teach them that we aren't all alike and that we don't all do things the same way. I think the holidays and the many differences in celebrations across the world is a fabulous teaching opportunity. The fact is that kids are excited about this time of year. How cool is it to teach a child that as excited as they are about Christmas, another child is just as excited about Kwanza?

I understand your point and concerns, but you don't have to have coercion in order to talk about holidays. Sounds like your kids just needed to be with some really great teachers who know how to talk about our differences well.