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You would be disappointed then because Hanukkah is not a major Jewish holiday and it is not celebrated in Israel in a huge way as Christmas is here.
It is only the commercialization of Christmas that has dragged Hanukkah into the materialistic frey this time of year.
You missed my point. My point was that it is a dominantly Jewish nation. I would, as such, expect Jewish holidays and festivities to dominate. I would expect national holidays to be ones that are important to those of the Jewish faith. Just as if I went to India, China, or the middle east. I would not expect Christian holidays and festivities to dominate those cultures.
I would not be disappointed in the least. I would expect those nations to do whatever reflects the majority of its people.
You missed my point. My point was that it is a dominantly Jewish nation. I would, as such, expect Jewish holidays and festivities to dominate. I would expect national holidays to be ones that are important to those of the Jewish faith. Just as if I went to India, China, or the middle east. I would not expect Christian holidays and festivities to dominate those cultures.
I would not be disappointed in the least. I would expect those nations to do whatever reflects the majority of its people.
Were the New York newspapers trying to be so PC that they refused to use the words-----Indians ( Cleveland) ----Braves ( Atlanta) ---Seminoles ( Florida State )--------Redskins ( Washinton) in their newspapers ?
A few years back, the editor of the Portland Oregonian made national headlines and appeared on network news with his policy change.
I didn't see any major newspapers from New York make the national news for making a policy change like this, and I certainly didn't see any major newspapers from the ---deep south--make national news by refusing to use a teams name in their sports section of their newspaper.
I repeat--------another example of Oregon trying to become the PC center of the US.
Um... I'm pretty sure crazy transplant parents in Ashland from Berkeley/Madison/SF/wherever and some editors from The Oregonian don't equal the entire State of Oregon... Uh...
Basically, Fiddlehead's posts were dead on. This wasn't a big deal. They took a holiday tree down, so what? Who cares? It only affects students, their families, and the staff that are associated with Bellview Elementary in Ashland. There are no sweeping repercussions for the rest of the USA, or the rest of Oregon even. So what's the commotion about?
Um... I'm pretty sure crazy transplant parents in Ashland from Berkeley/Madison/SF/wherever and some editors from The Oregonian don't equal the entire State of Oregon... Uh...
Basically, Fiddlehead's posts were dead on. This wasn't a big deal. They took a holiday tree down, so what? Who cares? It only affects students, their families, and the staff that are associated with Bellview Elementary in Ashland. There are no sweeping repercussions for the rest of the USA, or the rest of Oregon even. So what's the commotion about?
Personally, I think the Ashland parents who asked to have the tree removed were annoying and officious. But, agreed, no big deal. I think the commotion is about all the barking talk radio hosts who are looking for evidence that liberals and gays are persecuting white, straight, Christian majority in this country. Indignation was becoming a rare resource when when the Republicans were dominating all three branches of government. so, when a story like this happens anywhere, it is suddenly nationwide news.
After reading a few of these posts, I am on the side of those wanting to keep the tree. Not for the reasons most think. If it is tree that the Christmas tree came to us from N. Germany, and reflects a tradition of the largest European ethnic group in the country, that is valuable. For one thing, Christmas trees are lovely and atmospheric. Second, the German immigrants were tarred by the NAZIs who started their garbage a hundred years after many of our German ancestors left. You see relatively few elements of German culture so prominantly displayed, and I think it is pretty cool. We have Cinco de Mayo, St. Patrick's Day, Thanksgiving, so the German-inspired Christmas tree fits right in, in my mind at least.
This post could not be more wrong. The KKK...They were absolutely white, evangelical protestant from the beginning, and their misguided interpretation of how to protect their religious, ethnic heritage was to engage in a sustained campaign of intimidation and violence against all groups they saw as threats.
While Oregon has plenty of pagan, hippy athiest types, as well as many exurban immigrants, the rural culture of the state outside the immigration targests is decidedly conservative and Protestant Christian, with cultural links to the bible belt. The reality that the overwhelmingly protestant bible belt spawned the KKK is a challenge they must confront, and think about, and not false put off on an imaginary group.
An excellent explanation, fiddlehead. Too bad those who gather all of their information on Oregon do so by reading the NYT or by watching abbreviated and biased a "news' shows.
Those of us who have lived here for any length of time are very well aware of the very strong bible-belt and often virulent religious cultures in this state. Few people have an awareness of just how extremely conservative this state is.
In any case, this thread was about a single complaint about a single Christmas tree.
Thank you for a well thought out and well written post.
An excellent explanation, fiddlehead. Too bad those who gather all of their information on Oregon do so by reading the NYT or by watching abbreviated and biased a "news' shows.
Those of us who have lived here for any length of time are very well aware of the very strong bible-belt and often virulent religious cultures in this state. Few people have an awareness of just how extremely conservative this state is.
In any case, this thread was about a single complaint about a single Christmas tree.
Thank you for a well thought out and well written post.
Thanks Felina,
One of the interesting things about Oregon to me is the unique combination of rural, hard-right, poor with low educational attainment, coupled with 30 years of hard-left, often affluent, highly educated immigrants. Oh, and the clueless, hygeine-challenged, hippie, trustafarian element. All groups hold each other largely in contempt, so it is hard to move forward as a state. We keep fighting the same old logging vs. enviros vs. "Californians" vs. rednecks arguments. And, sadly, the extremes of all groups seem to have little interest in the viewpoints/ perspectives of the other. I love Oregon, but these oil and water relationships are quite a challenge, and frankly, it gets quite boring to keep hearing the same rants from both sides.
The Christmas tree thing has just about no value and interest, except that it exemplifies the annoying liberal immigrant know-it-allness, and the reactionary and self-serving ranting from the talk radio shills. I expect to see Sarah Palin holding a news conference here soon to talk about "American values"...
One of the interesting things about Oregon to me is the unique combination of rural, hard-right, poor with low educational attainment, coupled with 30 years of hard-left, often affluent, highly educated immigrants. Both groups hold each other largely in comtempt, so it is hard to move forward as a state. We keep fighting the same old logging vs. enviros arguments. And, sadly, the extremes of both ends seems to have little interest in the viewpoint perspective of the other. I love Oregon, but this oil and water relationship is quite a challenge, and frankly, it gets quite boring to keep hearing the same rants from both sides.
The Christmas tree thing has just about no value and interest, except that it exemplifies the annoying liberal immigrant know-it-allness, and the reactionary and self-serving ranting from the talk radio shills. I expect to see Sarah Palin holding a news conference here soon to talk about "American values"...
That's why I always tell potential clients that want to relocate here that Oregon is not liberal like they think it is. I am totally clear that we have funky politics here.
I totally understand why Gov Kitzhaber called Oregon ungovernable.
That's why I always tell potential clients that want to relocate here that Oregon is not liberal like they think it is. I am totally clear that we have funky politics here.
I totally understand why Gov Kitzhaber called Oregon ungovernable.
I agree. Polarized is how I would describe Oregon. Yes, the big city and a few college towns are liberal, but there are plenty of not only conservatives, but downright cantankerous and contrary social conservatives. And, as an increasingly cantankerous working Oregonian myself, I would say we aren't especially predisposed to welcome hordes of wealthy liberals blowing in, buying the best homes in the county cash, and doing really,really smart things like complaining about Christmas trees. I just wish we would listen to each other and work together to make Oregon better.
Although at some level, I agree with Kitzhaber, I think that is a very wimpy thing to say for a Governor. As the big dog, he must take the blame, at least in part, for being less successful than he would have liked. Governors have to not only be right a good deal of the time, they also have to be persuasive in public and the legislature, or barring that brutal tacticians (I hear LBJ was a real SOB and played hardball with folks in both parties). I really doubt many Governors have the luxury of choosing a convenient constituency.
Last edited by Fiddlehead; 12-13-2009 at 01:18 PM..
I agree. Polarized is how I would describe Oregon. Yes, the big city and a few college towns are liberal, but there are plenty of not only conservatives, but downright cantankerous and contrary social conservatives. And, as an increasingly cantankerous working Oregonian myself, I would say we aren't especially predisposed to welcome hordes of wealthy liberals blowing in, buying the best homes in the county cash, and doing really,really smart things like complaining about Christmas trees. I just wish we would listen to each other and work together to make Oregon better.
Although at some level, I agree with Kitzhaber, I think that is a very wimpy thing to say for a Governor. As the big dog, he must take the blame, at least in part, for being less successful than he would have liked. Governors have to not only be right a good deal of the time, they also have to be persuasive in public and the legislature, or barring that brutal tacticians (I hear LBJ was a real SOB and played hardball with folks in both parties). I really doubt many Governors have the luxury of choosing a convenient constituency.
I know he got a lot of flack for saying it. It is the job of the governor to try and pull people together, no disagreement there. Unfortunately I am seeing more and more polarization in Oregon with the poor economy. Food Banks are bulging with requests for food and someone complains about a tree that has tags for gifts for kids...we have some serious ills to work out in our society.
My two cents: Many non-Christian parents have a difficult time in December explaining to their children why Santa doesn't come to their house. It has to be hard to be a such a parent during this time. Too many parents would rather see Christmas just go away and not cause problems for them at home. They have to tell the kids that there are just some things they can't have and Christmas is one of them. It's tough to have to do that.
It's also why Hanukkah is so hyped up here in the US and is barely noticed in Israel. It has become a competition in some ways. In the northeast, the kids have off two days in September for the Jewish holidays, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. There are no celebrations in school and no explanations to all the other kids why they have two days off from school. Why is that, when those two events are considered the High Holy Days? It is only in December that non-Christian kids are treated to an explanation of a small holiday which happens to be in the same month as Christmas.
I'd tell those parents that what is great about this country is that there is no persecution for those who don't celebrate certain holidays. We are free to celebrate, or not. It's what gives us our strength.
If a Christmas tree is religious, so is a ginger bread cookie. Trying to make it so only reinforces existing resentments and perpetuates ignorance.
Last edited by ExNooYawk; 12-13-2009 at 02:52 PM..
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As the big dog, he must take the blame, at least in part, for being less successful than he would have liked. Governors have to not only be right a good deal of the time, they also have to be persuasive in public and the legislature, or barring that brutal tacticians (I hear LBJ was a real SOB and played hardball with folks in both parties). I really doubt many Governors have the luxury of choosing a convenient constituency. 
