So I'm not alone--Florida really is as bad as I think it is!!! (Miami: appointed, sales)

[TKramar]

I've lived in Florida over 25 years. No problems here...at least not any that I wouldn't experience ANYWHERE else.

Oh, I have to take that back. MOST other places I'd have to deal with snow and ice too. Here, I don't.

[mojow]

Originally Posted by amax41

Here's the bottom line.... the value of manners is something our grandparents, etc. knew and were to teach us. I know they did in my case. Manners is not to be confused with ethics which is not to be confused with
etiquette. Those of the P.C. "religion" have completely confused it all.


and since mojow now expects be to be even more (in his/her mind) obnoxiously animalistic....(that cracks me up!)


I say this - sometimes you have to yell loud enough and hard enough for people to listen. Because if you don't you have only yourself to blame not anyone else....oh yea for the totally P.C. you have to have someone/something at fault in anything that goes wrong.... you can't just walk away not boiling it down cause then you learn nothing.


IF YOU DO NOT STAND UP HOLD FIRM GROUND AND STIR THE POT YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF. THIS IS WHAT MAKES AMERICA WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

First of all, I'm going to clarify this paragraph that I wrote, because I did not make my point very clear:

Amax41, it's nice to see someone coming out strongly, wanting to take a stand. We ARE a nation of politically correct. We have manners. We consider ourselves polite and civilized. We don't want to be called names (like racist). We don't want to "lower" ourselves by getting into skirmishes that would make us seem like we're aggressive uneducated hicks.

I (evidently ineffectively) was making the point that people aren't coming out strong because it's against PC protocol, they fear they won't look polite, etc. PC has gotten in the way of being able to see when we need to stand up for ourselves.

It's much more difficult to type a message because tonal influxations get lost. Maybe if you had heard my tone of voice, you would have gotten it. I thought you were smart enough to get it anyway.

Now on to the rest of it... It's a little hard to respond to your response because you weren't very clear and mostly I "heard" your intensity rather than your message.

I did NOT swing back and forth, from side to side in my post. I HAVE picked a side. I'm against the combined forces of our gov's actions, and the forces and effects of our big capitalists, and the resulting affect on MY standard of living. I believe people need to pull together and take some actions. But as you can see, people here don't even agree on the EFFECT or that ANYTHING should be done. So why should I come out YELLING and saying statements that they will recoil from if they seem to be racist or against our constitution???????

I thought in my post that I made it clear (using a softer voice than you) that politically correct is doing more damage than anything. I did choose words and water down my statements, but if I want any one to consider my opinion, then I have to say things in a way that won't be abrasive to them.

I agreed with all your bullet points. Except maybe for the one that I mentioned. If you're going to go to an extreme such as that and say that people can only speak their native language when they are inside their homes, a lot of people won't consider a word you're saying because you just messed with the constitution.

The changes I made to that bullet point didn't rub against the constitution, but fixed something wrong in our economics.

and since mojow now expects be to be even more (in his/her mind) obnoxiously animalistic....(that cracks me up!)

I could be offended but I'm actually not because, I don't know, I guess because you're not worth it somehow. My respect for you diminished by such a staunch degree that I want to take back the rep point. But I don't even care enough to go through the motions to do it.

I say this - sometimes you have to yell loud enough and hard enough for people to listen.

But sometimes when you yell, people can't HEAR you because they are busy being YELLED AT. They will either turn a deaf ear, or they'll get into a yelling match. And in the end, no message has been received by either side.

I will only respond to one more thing, and that is about the 2 links I posted. If you think those 2 links have NOTHING to do with the state of affairs today, then WOW, I really misjudged you.

You're telling people to take a stand. Reminds me of some of our great leaders. It would be nice to have another leader stand up with some passion, compassion, intensity, intelligence, clarity of thought, insight into issues, and all the other qualities that make people listen. There's a difference between yelling, and having a loud voice.

[mojow]

yeah dude. I just re-read your post AGAIN trying to make some sense of it... You said a lot of words with very little clarity of points. You sent the rough draft.

[Davachka]

[quote=amax41;2646020]


This is our country. If you want to come here thats fine - BUT - here's the rules

1) you must speak English well
2) you must talk in English always except in the privacy of your own home
3) only 1 family per house
4) you must pay taxes
5) you can not claim dual residency
6) you must learn how to drive in America
7) you must give us Americans as much respect as you want us to give you
8) your money must be spent here, not "back home"

break any of these or any of our laws and you lose all of it and end up back where you came from...and yes only one chance.

quote]

This is quite unconstitutional. I hope we never go into such a military/dictatorship state that the language we speak at home will be monitored. Florida may have its problems, but what languages people choose to speak is not the main concern. No more dual citizenship? Does that also go for Americans living abroad in other countries?
As a foreign born American citizen, I think your anger and dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs is warranted, but you are looking at the wrong people to blame. Look at the government, at the financial corporations and economy, at the oil companies, not the foreigners who are working hard just like you and have the right to speak their native tongues. If you have the right to be given a voice, so do they.
This land stands for freedom, don't try to take it away from those who were not born here, but are just trying to make a better life for themselves and contribute to society.

[hammerhead21]

Originally Posted by AliceT

First, I didn't read the article in the Orlando Slantinel. I don't have to. Anyone who has been in FL a couple decades or is a native, knows that rag to be as worthless as a New York rat colony. There are four things the Slantinel is good for: classified section, crossword puzzle, tv guide and comics. That's it. When you start reading outside of those four areas, you are reading fantasy, opinion or disgruntled/displaced ghetto rag.

With me so far?

I was an Orlando resident. I had family in the Tampa area long before Disney ever started buying up swampland in Orange and Osceola counties. If you want the news, listen to the radio. More specifically, listen to talk radio. That's where you will hear the heartbeat of the area as well as the nation. It will make you think rather than just mindlessly read words on paper devoid of feeling or tone.

If you fled another area to move to Orlando, that was your first mistake. Look before you leap. What did you hope to find in Orlando? Was it the air, the beaches, the fishing, the roaches, the alligators and poisonous snakes? What was it that led you to come here? Would it be all you anticipated if you weren't swayed by the lies in the daily rag?

All places are what you make it. If you are in Orlando for all the right reasons, then you need to stop looking at the negative and start living the positive. I get so irritated that people come to Florida thinking it to be something it isn't and then dismayed to find it is as simple as it is.

Expensive? Sure, just like everywhere else that is desireable. With the good, you will also get some bad. Nothing is perfect. But be part of the solution if you want change, go sit on the city councel meetings, attend the church of your choosing and become involved with the community. Join the local chapter of CERT, volunteer as a fire fighter, take classes at Valencia or UCF. No law says you have to have a degree or graduation in mind to take a class or two.

Nobody benefits from those who come to Orlando and then just complain that it's not what you had hoped. And worse that you see something negative in the daily rag, agree with it and then perpetuate it with more negative thoughts shared elsewhere. Be part of the community and see the good in your neighborhood.

Paradise is anywhere you want it to be, anywhere you move to, but it takes active participation from the masses, not just a few. I was there against my will initially, but made the best of it while I was there. Children usually don't have a say in where they live - where the parents go, the children go. I stayed most of my adult life and retired to where I called home all those years.

Why am I reading the Orlando forum? I just wanted to see what folks are saying about where I was. And I see it is just getting piled higher and deeper because of the Orlando Slantinal. Trust me on this one point: Stop reading that rag and start enjoying the area for what it has to offer. There are all manner of opportunities for higher learning, for active participation in the community, for being a part of the growth of what is a very nice place to live. It served a member of my family for a serious health condition very well and prolonged her life way past what would have occurred elsewhere.

Be happy where you are and don't add to the misery perpetuated by the Slantinal.

stereo typed. I live in nyc in a really nice neighborhood nice grass trees and all houses don't judge what you see on t.v. Their are a lot of really nice places here in nyc where I live I feel like i'm in a nice quiet town its just when you go down town nyc thats when you will see 8 million people. their are a lot of home owners here with good places to live and not bunched up in an apartment building a lot of us americans can't afford the rent anymoor and complaining. I wonder why is that next time vote for the right person and stop being so racist the immagrants would be glad for most americans to leave cities they are in moor room for them where are you going to go immagrants popping up all over the place. well theirs none in my neighborhood. besides i don't have a problem with them i have kids i'm scared of the rapist serial killers and the most evil Discovery Channel : Science, History, Space, Tech, Sharks, News

[Petertherock]

Florida may have it's problems...but even in my state of Maine we have serious crime. Crime is the same everywhere...it's just some areas have more of it. Look at the leading story on our news tonight in Portland Maine...

Criminal's Release Puts Campus On Alert - Portland News Story - WMTW Portland (http://www.wmtw.com/news/15152796/detail.html - broken link)

Criminal's Release Puts Campus On Alert

PORTLAND, Maine -- The man responsible for putting the University of Southern Maine’s Portland campus on high alert appeared in court on Monday.

Steven Ricci originally was charged with attempted sexual abuse of a minor after following a young girl as she exited a school bus. He served a year in jail and has been been charged twice with violating probation.

Police said Ricci, 43, also has been quoted as saying he wants to find a woman to rape and sexually mutilate.

Ricci was released from probation after Monday’s appearance in Cumberland County Superior Court and is expected to move into a home on Brighton Avenue, near the USM campus, late Monday, according to police.

Conditions of his release stipulate that Ricci have no contact with minors; that he not possess alcohol, drugs or sexually explicit materials; that he be subject to random searches and that he take his medication. He also will be required to wear a global positioning system ankle bracelet at all times.

School officials told News 8 they’re advising students to keep the doors to their cars and homes locked.

[xtoolmaker]

We moved here this summer from Frederick Md.The gang crime there was getting real bad plus the snow and cold and you can't carry a gun in Md.We retired here first thing I did was get a concealed carry permit.I have owned guns all my life and for the first time I feel a little safer on the street now that I carry.Sad commentary on life.

[amax41]

Originally Posted by mojow

First of all, I'm going to clarify this paragraph that I wrote, because I did not make my point very clear:

Amax41, it's nice to see someone coming out strongly, wanting to take a stand. We ARE a nation of politically correct. We have manners. We consider ourselves polite and civilized. We don't want to be called names (like racist). We don't want to "lower" ourselves by getting into skirmishes that would make us seem like we're aggressive uneducated hicks.

I (evidently ineffectively) was making the point that people aren't coming out strong because it's against PC protocol, they fear they won't look polite, etc. PC has gotten in the way of being able to see when we need to stand up for ourselves.

It's much more difficult to type a message because tonal influxations get lost. Maybe if you had heard my tone of voice, you would have gotten it. I thought you were smart enough to get it anyway.

I got it, it needed to be flushed out for the exact same reason. Sarcasm, dry humor, emotion, tonal influxations - do not communicate at all in the net. What I wrote was on purpose to flush out your response. Now it's flushed - you and I are all better on this one

I believe people need to pull together and take some actions. But as you can see, people here don't even agree on the EFFECT or that ANYTHING should be done.

We agree, the term I use is "the people are still sleeping" usually followed by "when they wake up and wonder where is the place they used to live...it will be way too late"

I agreed with all your bullet points. Except maybe for the one that I mentioned. If you're going to go to an extreme such as that and say that people can only speak their native language when they are inside their homes, a lot of people won't consider a word you're saying because you just messed with the constitution.

It actually isn't against the constitution. It's not polite. I did make it short due to the length of the actual...but...if you'd like the large version -

"You are not allowed to freely speak your language in public, considering we speak English and out of respect for others that could be in your conversation, English must be spoken at all times in public UNLESS you have requested and recieved express permission to "speak amongst yourselfs" in your own language"

Hopefully that clears that up. As you see my point stems to actually 2 main items. Speaking in their tongue is rude, especially when they are with someone that doesn't speak that language. More so another large point to this - should a group of these people be speaking in their native tongue... you are walking into the gas station let's say...you walk by them...you don't speak the language however they are in public talking about how they are about to hold up and blow away every living being in that gas station..... hmmm.

The bill of rights say "freedom of speech" I think if you asked those guys I'm pretty sure they meant English.

and since mojow now expects be to be even more (in his/her mind) obnoxiously animalistic....(that cracks me up!)

I could be offended but I'm actually not because, I don't know, I guess because you're not worth it somehow. My respect for you diminished by such a staunch degree that I want to take back the rep point. But I don't even care enough to go through the motions to do it.

sorry to hear that, thought you were not one of snappy judgement, however I just might be wrong on that one. However your phrasing did lead to that comment. (remember about the lack of emotion on the net above)

I say this - sometimes you have to yell loud enough and hard enough for people to listen.

But sometimes when you yell, people can't HEAR you because they are busy being YELLED AT. They will either turn a deaf ear, or they'll get into a yelling match. And in the end, no message has been received by either side.

by the way I'm trying to sift your message cause you got spinning in different directions also People will hear what they want to hear, we all know that. Those that turn a deaf ear to yelling generally don't deal well with problems. People to take to yelling against yelling actually can get the message and carry it on, mostly because they have had their "venting mechanism" triggered.

There is no right or wrong in approach...well except as pointed out ..the P.C. one. You have to use what you can at whatever time it is with whatever read you have. It works or it doesn't and you adjust to make it work.

I will only respond to one more thing, and that is about the 2 links I posted. If you think those 2 links have NOTHING to do with the state of affairs today, then WOW, I really misjudged you.

Actually in looking at that paragraph I wrote back to you I overran two thought lines together and only ended up with one...ok so here is the toughts on those articles...it's the spin in them.

The first article talks about those resources, and quite honestly we need resources to be used... but..what it does also say is in the commentary below which does get a bit "over the top" Again I'd have to line by line flush this article along with the other one due to our "responsible media" (note sarcasm) ....

I can say one thing about he American Product one. Long ago in a land only known as Detroit...or as it tends to be called now "America's Armpit"... There were many businesses booming from the auto industry. Some guy names "layoff" came along and created a large pool of unemployed people that part of their existence is funded by Illinois. These people who were making (amount is only for example..) $25 per hour, are still unemployed because making $7 per hour is "beneath them".

I say this because I attended a football game a few years back in the Silverdome and had the opportunity to sit next to some of these people. They were STILL unemployed. I only verified through this conversation what I suspected all along. I was faced with 3 hours of conversation with people that combined arrogance, ignorance, and lack of vision. I even questioned whether being offered a job for $18 per hour would be ok. The first question was "doing what? it has to be the right thing or forget it" ...then the other comment "just $18?? that's it?".

It all comes back to pride...and American's really need to get it clear loud and strong.

You're telling people to take a stand. Reminds me of some of our great leaders. It would be nice to have another leader stand up with some passion, compassion, intensity, intelligence, clarity of thought, insight into issues, and all the other qualities that make people listen. There's a difference between yelling, and having a loud voice.

but you have to admit..my "yelling" got a response didn't it......

[mojow]

Ok now THAT was satisfying.... I'm glad you responded and laid out your views in a way I could think about.

Originally Posted by amax41

We agree, the term I use is "the people are still sleeping" usually followed by "when they wake up and wonder where is the place they used to live...it will be way too late"

It would be nice if 2 or 3 generations woke up at the same time.

Older generations have history to look at, they witness the change. Each new generation is used to the current status. When they get older and see things deteriorating in THIER prime years is when they'll start caring about politics and economics. And then they'll be up against the next generation below them that doesn't see anything wrong. So it seems like those 2 viewpoints will never agree.

But then there's the category of people that believe the reason we should accept things is because we're not the only one with problems, as if a reason to accept it is because it's happening everywhere. Those people will mostly likely also have the view "well times are changing, it's not like it was back in the day". To them, "old timers" need to roll with the changes. When they are old timers, it's possible they'll keep that attitude, things are changing everywhere, you just have to accept it. If they continue to believe so strongly in acceptance, then they'll always strongly accept. It's sad, because as a nation if they/we do ever wake up, it's like you said, it will be too late.

Originally Posted by amax41

It actually isn't against the constitution. It's not polite. I did make it short due to the length of the actual...but...if you'd like the large version -

"You are not allowed to freely speak your language in public, considering we speak English and out of respect for others that could be in your conversation, English must be spoken at all times in public UNLESS you have requested and recieved express permission to "speak amongst yourselfs" in your own language"

Hopefully that clears that up. As you see my point stems to actually 2 main items. Speaking in their tongue is rude, especially when they are with someone that doesn't speak that language. More so another large point to this - should a group of these people be speaking in their native tongue... you are walking into the gas station let's say...you walk by them...you don't speak the language however they are in public talking about how they are about to hold up and blow away every living being in that gas station..... hmmm.

The bill of rights say "freedom of speech" I think if you asked those guys I'm pretty sure they meant English.

I get what you're saying here. And your point feels right. But (and here I'm pointing out why the majority of people will balk... the same thing for bullet point #7)... Your argument is based on an interpretation, meaning it's subjective, rather than objective.

To explain, the word "rude" is a subjective term because it's open to interpretation. It means different things to different people. What you may consider rude, someone else may not. For instance, this happened to me and most people would agree this is rude. I was having a conversation with someone, when someone else walked up, and the both of them began speaking in spanish. The English conversation I was having with the other person had not ended. There was no polite "we'll catch up on this later, it was nice talking to you". They were my co-workers and both knew that I didn't speak spanish, and right in the middle of my conversation, they both started a new conversation that excluded me even though I was still walking with them out to our cars.

But in a less personal situation, I don't think it's rude when I'm in a store and strangers that I don't know are walking around talking amongst themselves in spanish. I may be bothered by it only because it makes me feel like I'm living in another country where I'm not connected to people around me, but I don't feel that they are purposely behaving rudely.

Once you make a "law" that is based on subjective interpretation, you have a problem trying to decide who has the right to decide what is considered rude.

#7 is the same. Respect. My idea and your idea of respect may be totally different. So who gets to decide what is considered disrespectful.

On the other hand, when a rule is made based on objectivity, it's more likely to have factual cause and effect circumstances. That's why I can completely agree with making it a law that here in the US, employees have to speak English. (I want to say speak it "well" but then again, that goes back to someone has to set a standard on what is meant by "well" and it could easily become subjective.)

Objectively, I can point to facts that show that employees that cannot speak English cost the companies more money (as my earlier example of my BF having the spanish helper). Also, more misinformation is handed out when people do not speak well enough english to understand the information that is being asked of them. For instance, I called some place to see if I could pay my bill using a 3rd party check. A check from my parents sent from out of state was what I wanted to send, and I wanted to see if I could just sign it over on the back and send it. The woman I spoke to said sure. I had trouble with her accent and so I assumed that even though she said sure, she may have had trouble with my accent or my english terms. So I asked to speak to a supervisor. The CORRECT answer is NO. What a pain it would have been to sign it over, send it out and then be faced with a late payment etc.

Also, how many jobs does it cut out for English only speaking people when more jobs start requiring people to speak spanish.

So it's economical, it's factual, and there's definite consequences that can't be considered up for argument because they are non-subjective.

People can listen to things if they see a definite relationship between an effect of a consequence and their pocketbook. But if you bring up something that is open for re-definition (like the definition of rude or disrespect), then the argument is emotional rather than factually analytical.

I didn't keep your quote in this post about using different methods for reaching people, but I see the wisdom in what you said. Point taken.

Originally Posted by amax41

Some guy names "layoff" came along and created a large pool of unemployed people that part of their existence is funded by Illinois. These people who were making (amount is only for example..) $25 per hour, are still unemployed because making $7 per hour is "beneath them".

I say this because I attended a football game a few years back in the Silverdome and had the opportunity to sit next to some of these people. They were STILL unemployed. I only verified through this conversation what I suspected all along. I was faced with 3 hours of conversation with people that combined arrogance, ignorance, and lack of vision. I even questioned whether being offered a job for $18 per hour would be ok. The first question was "doing what? it has to be the right thing or forget it" ...then the other comment "just $18?? that's it?".

It all comes back to pride...and American's really need to get it clear loud and strong.

I guess I have met one or two people who stayed unemployed because they couldn't find a job matching what they had. Logically it would seem that eventually, the empty tummy would win out over pride, but people have surprised me before.....

I just want to make a small comment to what you mentioned about the reserved land being invaded. I agree that we probably do need the resources. But to me, the answer is to focus on how we're affected by over population. I think it may have been a topic years and years ago and hasn't really been looked at lately.

We are starting to struggle to have resources. I'm starting to think we're really messing up the ecology in the environment and that's going to do us in eventually.

But going back to over population and resources, corporations have no problem putting humans on the income statements as an expense, labeled "human resource" or some such thing. Well, to me the opposite is true too. From my point of view, jobs are employment resources. Each person needs one of those resources, and sometimes they have to have 2 or even 3 of those.

If jobs are taken away because products are made overseas, we're losing resources. Employees have to compete to get a job. But when there's less people than jobs, it's the employers that have to compete for employees by offering better wages, or benefits, or some other type perks.

I can see how people have become poorer in the last 30 years. And that's reason enough for me to take a look at the number of people that we allow to come over here. In the days when patriotism meant what the statue of liberty stands for (something like how we'll take in any one that needs a better life)... in those days, resources were abundant, land wasn't raped and raked clear, entreprenuership was alive and kicking for small business owners, jobs were more abundant...

Yes times are changing. And I don't think we should ACCEPT it as if it's natural occurence and because it's the same everywhere. Not when kids are without health care, foster homes are over flowing, 2 incomes cannot support one family decently. Not when poeple lived better 30 years ago than they do now.

There's so much emotion over the moral right and wrong of turning away immigrants. Using an analogy, a homeowner works hard to attain a home and make it the best it can be. I can't picture a home owner opening up his/her home to someone out of pity because that person has it worse off in their home. Especially if the homeowner's home begins to lose upkeep and maintainance. That's what's happening here, only it's happening so slowly, that it isn't apparent except to "old timers".

Originally Posted by amax41

but you have to admit..my "yelling" got a response didn't it......

yep

[amax41]

Originally Posted by mojow

Ok now THAT was satisfying.... I'm glad you responded and laid out your views in a way I could think about.

glad it all came together.

It would be nice if 2 or 3 generations woke up at the same time.

<sarcasm>
I'd be happy if anyone would wake up!
</sarcasm>

I get what you're saying here. And your point feels right. But (and here I'm pointing out why the majority of people will balk... the same thing for bullet point #7)... Your argument is based on an interpretation, meaning it's subjective, rather than objective.

To explain, the word "rude" is a subjective term because it's open to interpretation. It means different things to different people. What you may consider rude, someone else may not. For instance, this happened to me and most people would agree this is rude. I was having a conversation with someone, when someone else walked up, and the both of them began speaking in spanish. The English conversation I was having with the other person had not ended. There was no polite "we'll catch up on this later, it was nice talking to you". They were my co-workers and both knew that I didn't speak spanish, and right in the middle of my conversation, they both started a new conversation that excluded me even though I was still walking with them out to our cars.

ok lack of manners, etc. but on the other hand rude does hit it in some circumstances. More so you did really pick up the main point - it's open for discussion/interpretation like many laws. Like your example below..

But in a less personal situation, I don't think it's rude when I'm in a store and strangers that I don't know are walking around talking amongst themselves in spanish. I may be bothered by it only because it makes me feel like I'm living in another country where I'm not connected to people around me, but I don't feel that they are purposely behaving rudely.

No you are correct, it is not. However... let's take this view. An American goes to Germany. The difference there is English is the second language and just about every one of them speaks it so they already know what we are saying. Add in 9/11 and I think there is good reason to just say - speak it (english) or leave. Remember those people talking amongst themselves in spanish in that store only 5 minutes later could blow the **** out of it. You wouldn't be able to warn anyone ...unless they were speaking English (which I doubt they'd be freely talking about it) OR you were fluent in their dialect.

so as you see from our discussion - this is perfect for running up the discussion flag pole.

Once you make a "law" that is based on subjective interpretation, you have a problem trying to decide who has the right to decide what is considered rude.

so now we give the lawyers something else to sink their teeth into...oh well.

#7 is the same. Respect. My idea and your idea of respect may be totally different. So who gets to decide what is considered disrespectful.

I used the word respect in this case, because it needed a word. First to come to mind. All #7 really means - treat other people the way you want to be treated.

Also, how many jobs does it cut out for English only speaking people when more jobs start requiring people to speak spanish.

DING DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! You got it!

We have congressmen giving themselves raises, illegals taking jobs and ripping off this country, we have non-conforming people (as we have been talking about) doing all of it.

Did someone in Washington D.C. completely forget about the homeless??????

But if you bring up something that is open for re-definition (like the definition of rude or disrespect), then the argument is emotional rather than factually analytical.

Maybe we need to get emotion back into this. even if it is in a law. Perhaps if more emotion come out more changes would happen. Not sure but it's well worth a try.


and I don't mean Hillary crying on TV

I guess I have met one or two people who stayed unemployed because they couldn't find a job matching what they had. Logically it would seem that eventually, the empty tummy would win out over pride, but people have surprised me before.....

they continually surprise me. I remember years and years ago, I wa a collector. I had a guy that I actually found interviews for. He had a family with 2 young kids. He was pulling the same thing....finally I was pulling his house. Had no choice...the reaction was a picture for keeping. I had to go out there personally - I take his house - he's so pissed the police had to arrest him because he was starting to get violent. His wife also then informed him once they cuffed him and put him in the squad car that they were getting divorced. ....

I just want to make a small comment to what you mentioned about the reserved land being invaded. I agree that we probably do need the resources. ....<snipped to save space>

I think in that 3-4 paragraph response you have the basis in there.

Yes times are changing. And I don't think we should ACCEPT it as if it's natural occurence and because it's the same everywhere. Not when kids are without health care, foster homes are over flowing, 2 incomes cannot support one family decently. Not when poeple lived better 30 years ago than they do now.

This has many ingredients. However the main point is - We should NOT accept it!

There's so much emotion over the moral right and wrong of turning away immigrants. Using an analogy, a homeowner works hard to attain a home and make it the best it can be. I can't picture a home owner opening up his/her home to someone out of pity because that person has it worse off in their home. Especially if the homeowner's home begins to lose upkeep and maintainance. That's what's happening here, only it's happening so slowly, that it isn't apparent except to "old timers".

DING DING DING DING You won again!

it's a challenge of character. (I'm about to rant a bit) Our country's character is flawed. We have become American Land of the Free Home of the Socialists. Since we have to stick our nose into everyone's business, be the world's "savior", advance money to other countries and allow them to not have to pay us back.... oh I could go on! If one of our citizen's (natural...so we don't get confused) is in dire need (i.e. homeless) then it is NOT ok to go help XYZ country or those people until OUR people are taken care of. Also I don't mean support them - help them. Give them the ability (guiding hands if your will) to stand on their own two feet and become a complete fully functional citizen again.
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Take a ride with me out to the "outer traces of reality".....


I sometimes look at our world like this -

We are only a subset of a bigger picture. Imagine that this universe actually is no more than a small "fleck" on something in a larger world. In that world are beings way far more advanced than we are or ever will be. They watch in on us like we watch in on our pets.... So here we sit with nuclear weapons, turf fights, kids with belts below their butts, a guy wearing a diaper on his head and 100,000 guys still can't find him...and so on. The other beings are laughing their butts off daily, and the "conversation around the bar" in their world all has to do with one thing -

"yep there those idiots go again, they've done this 28 times before and still don't get it right they keep on blowing themselves up at the same time every time."

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