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Old 01-22-2024, 06:41 AM
 
14,439 posts, read 14,382,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
My father's DPOA and Advance Directive were created using the State's approved forms. I intend to use the same for myself. I haven't yet decided if I will bother with a will. Shocker, I know.
You really should remind everyone though that you are a lawyer and you know what you are doing.
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Old 01-22-2024, 06:43 AM
 
107,031 posts, read 109,313,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf747 View Post
Looking at these costs impels me to ask what you all think of software like Will Maker or other software for making your own will? I mean that we, and many others, can’t afford those prices. What do we do?
if you think the cost of having these documents done by a professional is expensive , odds are your estate can’t afford free
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Old 01-22-2024, 06:45 AM
 
14,439 posts, read 14,382,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf747 View Post
Looking at these costs impels me to ask what you all think of software like Will Maker or other software for making your own will? I mean that we, and many others, can’t afford those prices. What do we do?
My advice is talk to multiple attorneys and compare prices. I wouldn't be afraid to tell Attorney B that Attorney A offered to do it for a certain price and ask them if they can beat that price. If you are leaving behind a home you can probably afford a charge of under $2,000. Again, charges will vary depending on what you what want. If it is just a simple will it should be fairly cheap. If you are going to have 10 different bequests in that will its not a simple will and it will cost more. If you are creating both a trust and a will its going to cost more. If you want a will, trust, power of attorney, and and an advanced care directive than it may well go over $2,000.

There is a saying that "a person who represents himself has a fool for a client." (that includes preparing your own legal documents)
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Old 01-22-2024, 06:53 AM
 
107,031 posts, read 109,313,415 times
Reputation: 80423
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
My advice is talk to multiple attorneys and compare prices. I wouldn't be afraid to tell Attorney B that Attorney A offered to do it for a certain price and ask them if they can beat that price. If you are leaving behind a home you can probably afford a charge of under $2,000. Again, charges will vary depending on what you what want. If it is just a simple will it should be fairly cheap. If you are going to have 10 different bequests in that will its not a simple will and it will cost more. If you are creating both a trust and a will its going to cost more. If you want a will, trust, power of attorney, and and an advanced care directive than it may well go over $2,000.

There is a saying that "a person who represents himself has a fool for a client." (that includes preparing your own legal documents)

one big problem with on line canned documents is a lot of what goes on in a jurisdiction is determined by current case law .

local attorneys specializing in that area tend to keep up with and know what is cropping up

some of the issues those who use canned documents in our state ,ny run in to are :

Preparing and executing a valid health care proxy provides a good illustration. The health care proxy is a document that allows an individual to appoint an agent to make health care decisions in case he/she becomes incapacitated.

The main purpose of the health care proxy is to appoint an agent. There is a presumption that the agent knows the principal’s wishes.

Nonetheless, according to New York State case law, if a principal’s wishes regarding the withholding of artificial nutrition and hydration are not articulated, an agent will not be able to make such decision.

Based on this case law, it is imperative for the principal to set forth his/her wishes regarding the administering of artificial nutrition and hydration either in the actual health care proxy or in a separate living will.

Failure to do this can result in unforeseen consequences – which is exactly what the principal was trying to avoid in the first place.

Secondly, many individuals erroneously believe that they can appoint more than one agent at a time on a health care proxy.

This would make the document faulty because only one agent at a time can make medical decisions. A person drafting a health care proxy can add language to avoid insulting other family members, but again- this requires the help of someone with experience.

Finally, the document must be witnessed by two individuals in order for it to be validly recognized. A person should not have his agent, spouse or child be a witness to the signing.

according to our attorney there even more problems in the area of powers of attorney.

The main thrust of a power of attorney is to appoint an agent to act on an individual’s behalf with respect to financial matters in case such individual becomes incapacitated.

Many people innocently refer to this document as one that is “simple” to prepare. This could not be further from the truth.

Firstly, New York State passed legislation effective September 2009 in an attempt to create a statutory form that would be uniformly accepted.

This legislation was the result of tremendous abuse that was found in this particular area, with some appointed agents taking advantage of the disabled and elderly.

The new power of attorney law results in a much lengthier document, and significantly restricts the actual power given to the agent over financial matters.

If transfers are to be made on behalf of the principal, a separate gift rider must be executed. The gift rider must specifically articulate the agent’s power to make gifts to himself/herself or to third parties.

Further, any additional powers beyond those enumerated in the statute, must be added to a modification section.

Finally, while the law mandates banks, brokerage houses and other financial institutions to recognize the power of attorney, the form utilized must be statutory.

Accordingly, if someone decides to cut corners and download a form from the internet , if the form is not statutory, it does not have to be legally recognized.

The power of attorney is an extremely important tool for estate and elder law practitioner.

If the principal incorrectly drafts and/or executes this form, his/her ultimate plans regarding Medicaid eligibility or gifting to loved ones could be completely stymied.

A last will and testament is yet another document that should prepared under the supervision of an experienced attorney.

After the person who executed the will dies (the “decedent”), the will gets admitted to probate through surrogate’s court so that the decedent’s wishes can ultimately be fulfilled.

Through the probate process, the will is reviewed and the court checks to make sure the will was drafted and executed properly.

The number of witnesses, the affidavit they sign and the way the will is fastened are some examples of what the court reviews.

Any mistakes, such as the removal of a staple or an ambiguous bequest can result in unnecessary delays, costly legal fees, and at worse, an inability to complete the probate process.


the missing verbiage pertaining to my wife’s ex husband predeceasing his parents cost us 500k.

it cost us 400k to buy out two estranged step children from a family construction business who were mentioned by name to get nothing and a 100k in legal fees .

but grandpa and grandma saved a few bucks having these documents done by a general practitioner and not an estate attorney.

so yeah , i have a lot to say about doing things ourselves because it’s cheaper

Last edited by mathjak107; 01-22-2024 at 07:09 AM..
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Old 01-22-2024, 07:11 AM
 
14,439 posts, read 14,382,622 times
Reputation: 45881
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
some of the issues those who use canned documents in our state ,ny run in to are :

Preparing and executing a valid health care proxy provides a good illustration. The health care proxy is a document that allows an individual to appoint an agent to make health care decisions in case he/she becomes incapacitated.

The main purpose of the health care proxy is to appoint an agent. There is a presumption that the agent knows the principal’s wishes.

Nonetheless, according to New York State case law, if a principal’s wishes regarding the withholding of artificial nutrition and hydration are not articulated, an agent will not be able to make such decision.

Based on this case law, it is imperative for the principal to set forth his/her wishes regarding the administering of artificial nutrition and hydration either in the actual health care proxy or in a separate living will.

Failure to do this can result in unforeseen consequences – which is exactly what the principal was trying to avoid in the first place.

Secondly, many individuals erroneously believe that they can appoint more than one agent at a time on a health care proxy.

This would make the document faulty because only one agent at a time can make medical decisions. A person drafting a health care proxy can add language to avoid insulting other family members, but again- this requires the help of someone with experience.

Finally, the document must be witnessed by two individuals in order for it to be validly recognized. A person should not have his agent, spouse or child be a witness to the signing.

We see even more problems in the area of powers of attorney.

The main thrust of a power of attorney is to appoint an agent to act on an individual’s behalf with respect to financial matters in case such individual becomes incapacitated.

Many people innocently refer to this document as one that is “simple” to prepare. This could not be further from the truth.

Firstly, New York State passed legislation effective September 2009 in an attempt to create a statutory form that would be uniformly accepted.

This legislation was the result of tremendous abuse that was found in this particular area, with some appointed agents taking advantage of the disabled and elderly.

The new power of attorney law results in a much lengthier document, and significantly restricts the actual power given to the agent over financial matters.

If transfers are to be made on behalf of the principal, a separate gift rider must be executed. The gift rider must specifically articulate the agent’s power to make gifts to himself/herself or to third parties.

Further, any additional powers beyond those enumerated in the statute, must be added to a modification section.

Finally, while the law mandates banks, brokerage houses and other financial institutions to recognize the power of attorney, the form utilized must be statutory.

Accordingly, if someone decides to cut corners and download a form from the internet , if the form is not statutory, it does not have to be legally recognized.

The power of attorney is an extremely important tool for estate and elder law practitioner.

If the principal incorrectly drafts and/or executes this form, his/her ultimate plans regarding Medicaid eligibility or gifting to loved ones could be completely stymied.

A last will and testament is yet another document that must be prepared under the supervision of any experienced attorney.

After the person who executed the will dies (the “decedent”), the will gets admitted to probate through surrogate’s court so that the decedent’s wishes can ultimately be fulfilled.

Through the probate process, the will is reviewed and the court checks to make sure the will was drafted and executed properly.

The number of witnesses, the affidavit they sign and the way the will is fastened are some examples of what the court reviews.

Any mistakes, such as the removal of a staple or an ambiguous bequest can result in unnecessary delays, costly legal fees, and at worse, an inability to complete the probate process.
As usual Mathjak, you have written an excellent authoritative post describing why estate planning requires the services of a professional. I wish everyone could read this before making such important decisions.

People say they cannot afford $2,000 for these services. I have to ask if they have a home that is worth at least $250,000. Many do and I don't think its unreasonable to ask them to spend less than 1% of this amount to properly bequeath their estate to others.

I'll just add that as you get older, you often recognize things you do not see when you are younger. My children are not equally situated and I think one may need more assistance than the other. So, it doesn't make sense to just "split everything down the middle" and give each one half. I'm going through some detailed discussions with my wife and attorney right now to get it right. Many people here have been through a divorce and may have children from both a prior and current marriage. Estate planning services are very important in these situations to see that everyone gets what you want them too.

What I think really goes on with some people is that its not that they cannot afford estate planning services. Its that they resent having to pay for them and they look for a way to avoid it. This accounts for the popularity of computer software like "Will Maker". Another group has spent their entire life budgeting. It just comes naturally to this group to look for a cheaper way to do everything. What they don't understand is that you get what you pay for in life. There maybe short cuts available to them, but they all come at a cost. The cost is not having the job done correctly which maybe the people they intend to leave their estate to will pay for.

Estate planning is not a time when you want to do a half-assed job. You want to do it right even it does cost a bit.
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Old 01-22-2024, 09:22 AM
 
37,722 posts, read 46,165,629 times
Reputation: 57319
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf747 View Post
Looking at these costs impels me to ask what you all think of software like Will Maker or other software for making your own will? I mean that we, and many others, can’t afford those prices. What do we do?
https://www.aarp.org/money/investing...ng-a-will.html
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Old 01-22-2024, 11:31 AM
 
107,031 posts, read 109,313,415 times
Reputation: 80423
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
As usual Mathjak, you have written an excellent authoritative post describing why estate planning requires the services of a professional. I wish everyone could read this before making such important decisions.

People say they cannot afford $2,000 for these services. I have to ask if they have a home that is worth at least $250,000. Many do and I don't think its unreasonable to ask them to spend less than 1% of this amount to properly bequeath their estate to others.

I'll just add that as you get older, you often recognize things you do not see when you are younger. My children are not equally situated and I think one may need more assistance than the other. So, it doesn't make sense to just "split everything down the middle" and give each one half. I'm going through some detailed discussions with my wife and attorney right now to get it right. Many people here have been through a divorce and may have children from both a prior and current marriage. Estate planning services are very important in these situations to see that everyone gets what you want them too.

What I think really goes on with some people is that its not that they cannot afford estate planning services. Its that they resent having to pay for them and they look for a way to avoid it. This accounts for the popularity of computer software like "Will Maker". Another group has spent their entire life budgeting. It just comes naturally to this group to look for a cheaper way to do everything. What they don't understand is that you get what you pay for in life. There maybe short cuts available to them, but they all come at a cost. The cost is not having the job done correctly which maybe the people they intend to leave their estate to will pay for.

Estate planning is not a time when you want to do a half-assed job. You want to do it right even it does cost a bit.
in my wife’s case , if the judge deemed her father in-laws paperwork defective because of the fact it missed having provisions for predeceasing then my wife would get nothing as everything would just go to her husbands brother .

the judge suggested we try to reach an out of court settlement wth the two estranged step children because if he deemed it defective she would get nothing .

so it ended up instead of inheriting her share we both ended up buying out the step kids and paid to have a share in the business . it was never inherited since we had to buy it.

it was a costly lesson in how you can make the intent so clear yet there is nothing the court can do if the paperwork is defective.

the judge said it best , it’s clear the step kids were to get nothing but i can’t add the missing verbiage or rewrite history
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Old 01-22-2024, 11:43 AM
 
8,032 posts, read 3,955,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
plus there is a charge for the product they sell …our disclaimer trusts were a few thousand dollars ,so it isn’t just an hourly charge they work in..

we were originally going to use on line documents and have a attorney proof them for us ..not one attorney we called would do that and use a document not tweaked and composed by them.

so many attorneys charge by the product they are providing.

even in my sons field of labor law there are different prices for different services depending on complexity and what has to be provided so not just hourly
Yes... a local estate attorney wants $13,000+ for a SLAT.
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Old 01-22-2024, 12:05 PM
 
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Reputation: 152
Question: for a single person who is a renter, has accounts with beneficiaries and a safe deposit box what products would be necessary? Car has a loan underwater.
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Old 01-22-2024, 12:08 PM
 
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Do you need a lawyer if it's just a two person couple?

Did OP mention having children?

I'm married, no kids, if I die I trust my spouse will take care of everything including my estate left to him?
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