Decline of Phoenix area? (Glendale, Tempe: rental car, house, to buy)

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by AlohaFriday

Light rail is pretty slow. They should have built it above grade, not at-grade, to make it faster. Driving is easier and more convenient. I always wonder who takes it.

Anyone here take the light rail routinely? I'm really curious about people's experiences using it.

Exactly. It should have either been built above grade or in a dedicated right-of-way, not down the middle of major thoroughfares. The light cycles on Central from Van Buren to Camelback are ludicrous because of these trains slugging up and down the middle of the street. Phoenix's light cycles are already terrible as it is and this system doesn't help one bit. Denver does it right, Salt Lake has the rail running on the side of the street in many segments, LA's rail is largely elevated or in dedicated rights-of-way, yet we get to have this clown system all in the name of saving money.

Light rail does not compete with the automobile here at all, even in the height of rush hour traffic. In Denver you can see the light rail zooming past you while you sit in traffic on I-25. In Phoenix, I can bike as fast as the light rail travels.

I used it for a short time until I realized how obnoxious it is. Between the speed, the less the many unstable people who ride it, the people shouting into their cell phones about complete nonsense, and people whose vocabulary would make a sailor cringe, I'd rather just hop in my car and drive.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by stevek64

yes, in the outlying Phoenix suburbs, bus service or public transit of any kind is non-existent in many parts based on what I've noticed. Other areas seem well covered by bus service in the older/more established cities closer to or in the city of Phoenix it seems. And of course the rail in certain parts closer to the core of Phoenix.

In the far outlying areas, that is true (except for VERY limited express service to/from Maricopa and, I think, Buckeye. They have to see a demand for it, and the population to support it, before they'd even try. The problem is, the further out you go, the more people are wedded to their cars. They moved out there knowing they'd have to drive to everything, and they do. Then, it's one thing to have some sort of express service and quite another to have local service to shopping, etc.

[Steve-o]

This thread makes me miss Metra back in Chicago. The light rail here is a bad joke. Its slow, stops too often, and doesnt service suburbs with big populations (Scottsdale, Chandler, Peoria, etc). If there was a commuter train to downtown PHX, Id take it everyday rather than sit on SR51 or the 101.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by Steve-o

This thread makes me miss Metra back in Chicago. The light rail here is a bad joke. Its slow, stops too often, and doesnt service suburbs with big populations (Scottsdale, Chandler, Peoria, etc). If there was a commuter train to downtown PHX, Id take it everyday rather than sit on SR51 or the 101.

Scottsdale didn't, and doesn't, want it. The cost to get it to those other far flung suburbs is astronomical. As it is, (and with planned and underway expansion) and used together with existing bus lines, is it better than no rail at all? Of course it is.

That said, I'd like to see some version(s) of the Hattie B (the flood commuter train from the 70's) come back, too.

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by observer53

Scottsdale didn't, and doesn't, want it. The cost to get it to those other far flung suburbs is astronomical. As it is, (and with planned and underway expansion) and used together with existing bus lines, is it better than no rail at all? Of course it is.

That said, I'd like to see some version(s) of the Hattie B (the flood commuter train from the 70's) come back, too.

Im sure the price would be astronomical, but it would be worth it. Less cars on the road, less pollution, less accidents, etc. If Phoenix doesnt want to fork over the money, its their loss. In the meantime other cities (that arent growing as fast) are revamping their existing lines or adding new ones, and in today's economy, ridership seems to be growing for the most part. Phoenix needs to stop being the laughing stock and step it up! Its unbelievable to me how Chicago's ancient commuter system is far more efficient than anything a "high-tech" and burgeoning city like Phoenix has or can propose.

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by Steve-o

Im sure the price would be astronomical, but it would be worth it. Less cars on the road, less pollution, less accidents, etc. If Phoenix doesnt want to fork over the money, its their loss. In the meantime other cities (that arent growing as fast) are revamping their existing lines or adding new ones, and in today's economy, ridership seems to be growing for the most part. Phoenix needs to stop being the laughing stock and step it up! Its unbelievable to me how Chicago's ancient commuter system is far more efficient than anything a "high-tech" and burgeoning city like Phoenix has or can propose.

Phoenix is not Chicago. Demand obviously isn't here. It is what it is.

As for Phoenix being the "laughing stock", you do realize ILL is #2 in terms of states that people are fleeing?

Illinois - In Photos: The Top 9 States People Are Fleeing In 2014 - Forbes

[pbenjamin]

Connecting the outer suburbs with light rail would be plain silly. It would take a ridiculously long to time get from places like Surprise or Gilbert to downtown. What would be much more appropriate would be commuter rail, which would be elevated, faster and have fewer stops.

[infocyde]

Originally Posted by AlohaFriday

I think it depends on a lot of things.


Things Against Phoenix
1. Political environment. I have had many people very involved in local economic development efforts tell me that shenanigans like SB 1070 and other ultra-conservative moves deter big companies from moving here. Companies don't want to deal with any political fallout, regardless of whether executives agree with the position.

Also, many of the high-tech companies and talent that Phoenix would love to steal from other places are ultra-liberal and don't want to live in a state with extremist lawmakers. Most of the people here are not extremists, but our lawmakers continue to hurt this state's reputation.

Me: So tired of the little political digs scattered in city-data. Those "extremist" law makers are there because the voters in this state put them there. For many of us these "extremist" are a plus. I agree with many of your other points except I'm not a big fan of government-private partnerships. It puts business development dependent on the good will of the state, which long term has consequences. As to the education system in Arizona, it is lacking, but money is but one metric. When talk of investment in education begins that needs to be understood. This country put men on the moon using slide rules spending significantly less on education per pupil than the nation does now over all. We have many broken systems, and state and federal intervention is often more negative than positive (look at the common core disaster). Lastly big corporations are not the economic engine of either Arizona or the United States in general. Many seem to be focused on luring big corporations in town and often cut deals with them in order to get them to head quarter or produce in an area, and these deals often make their presence a net loss or a break even for the communities that make them. Arizona should encourage the continued growth of small businesses.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

Connecting the outer suburbs with light rail would be plain silly. It would take a ridiculously long to time get from places like Surprise or Gilbert to downtown. What would be much more appropriate would be commuter rail, which would be elevated, faster and have fewer stops.

Pray tell. Why would they want to get downtown in the first place? (Aside from watching a mediocre sports team) This is not New York, its not Chicago, it's not even Denver. Phoenix developed AFTER the automobile. Our employers are spread all over. Entertainment is scattered. There are government types and lawyers downtown, but most of us work in a burb somewhere. Even the few Fortune 500s we have are located outside of downtown - like in Tempe. This is not changing no matter how much money we throw at trendy public transport options. It is, was, and will always be one man (woman), one car around here.

Everyday on this forum we advise new people to live close to where they are going to work - Chandler, Gilbert, north Phoenix. Nobody ever gets advised to live close to downtown.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Pray tell. Why would they want to get downtown in the first place? (Aside from watching a mediocre sports team) This is not New York, its not Chicago, it's not even Denver. Phoenix developed AFTER the automobile. Our employers are spread all over. There are government types and lawyers downtown, but most of us work in a burb somewhere. Even the few Fortune 500s we have are located outside of downtown - like in Tempe. This is not changing no matter how much money we throw at trendy public transport options. It is, was, and will always be one man (woman), one car around here.

Everyday on this forum we advise new people to live close to where they are going to work - Chandler, Gilbert, north Phoenix. Nobody ever gets advised to live close to downtown.

Whether or not you need to connect these places at all, whether commuter rail is a good idea, is a different discussion and I know that we disagree. My point is that if you do run trains out to such places, light rail is too slow and stops in too many places.