Loop 202 South Mountain Freeway is OPEN! (Phoenix, Mesa: buying, maintenance, tax)

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

And that was mainly because ADOT & MAG fudged their budgets so much that it caused an audit in the early 1990s. The audit revealed that there was mis management of the funds that were allotted to them for freeway construction. ADOT blamed the recession that occurred at the time, but there was a great deal of poor planning and squandering on their part. I wish Symington would not have removed this freeway (or the Grand Expressway & Paradise Freeway for that matter) ... but since ADOT claimed that they could not finished what they started, Symington really had no choice but to axe the projects that were less essential at the time in order to allow the other freeways (51, 101, 202) which were more essential to be completed.



It's moving at a slow pace because it's funded by the ALCP, which is managed through MAG. Get the government out of it and make it a privatized toll road, and I'll guarantee that construction of Northern Parkway would accelerate & extend to Grand Avenue within a few years.



Although it's been said many times, many ways: what kind of cheese would you like with that whine?
()

No toll roads! One of many reasons I'll never consider living in Texas or Florida

[Roadwarriors79]

I wish most people would realize that most of the newer freeways in the Phoenix area don't get built these days in most other parts of the country. If they get built, it's mostly toll roads like in Florida and Texas. And for those of you who believe these states will remove the tolls once implemented, you have a better chance of meeting Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy, or buying the Brooklyn Bridge.


With all that being said, the only tolling I would consider acceptable would be either tolled express lanes or HOT lanes, or a toll highway with free frontage roads on either side. Give drivers the option to pay a toll or not pay a toll on any specific corridor.

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Roadwarriors79

I wish most people would realize that most of the newer freeways in the Phoenix area don't get built these days in most other parts of the country. If they get built, it's mostly toll roads like in Florida and Texas. And for those of you who believe these states will remove the tolls once implemented, you have a better chance of meeting Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy, or buying the Brooklyn Bridge.


With all that being said, the only tolling I would consider acceptable would be either tolled express lanes or HOT lanes, or a toll highway with free frontage roads on either side. Give drivers the option to pay a toll or not pay a toll on any specific corridor.

I think the final toll freeways to be made free once the bonds were paid were I-30 in the Metroplex and GA 400 in Atlanta, those were 20+ years ago.

Supposedly the Harris County Toll Authority was supposed to make the Sam Houston Tollway and Hardy Toll Road free use once the bonds were paid, but some law got passed back in like 2005 that said they would stay tolled in perpetuity with the tolls being used to fund NEW toll roads

[RampageInAZ]

Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian

Expect to see even more housing further from the city center.

This metro really needs to put a focus on developing the central area and establishing density/walkability.

Lets see, density/walkability brings one of two things, unaffordable costs, or crushing poverty/crime.

Super expensive condos for millionaires that average people cant afford, or poor areas where your door will get kicked in, car stolen, and youll get mugged after dark. No thanks to both of those.

Believe it or not, many of the people who live in the suburbs actually like living there. You can keep your density. i dont want to be stacked in a condo building like a rat. I enjoy having more then 1200 square feet of living space, a garage and a yard.

If you want density, move to San Fran. Oh wait, youd have to be worth 8 figures AND be ok with a homeless person defecating and shooting up at your front door.

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by RampageInAZ

Lets see, density/walkability brings one of two things, unaffordable costs, or crushing poverty/crime.

Super expensive condos for millionaires that average people cant afford, or poor areas where your door will get kicked in, car stolen, and youll get mugged after dark. No thanks to both of those.

Believe it or not, many of the people who live in the suburbs actually like living there. You can keep your density. i dont want to be stacked in a condo building like a rat. I enjoy having more then 1200 square feet of living space, a garage and a yard.

If you want density, move to San Fran. Oh wait, youd have to be worth 8 figures AND be ok with a homeless person defecating and shooting up at your front door.

Expect things to get more dense here, especially in the city proper like it has been. People generally have a limit that they're willing to commute. Once you're driving 90 mins or more one way to get to your job, the sprawl has already gone too far. People aren't going to move to Mobile or Gila Bend and commute in just to keep things low density

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

I think the final toll freeways to be made free once the bonds were paid were I-30 in the Metroplex and GA 400 in Atlanta, those were 20+ years ago.

The Camino Colombia Toll Road/State Highway 255 in Texas removed their tolls in 2017.

The route opened in 2000 and was foreclosed on late in 2003. During the 2017 Texas legislative session, language was added to Senate Bill 312 that disallowed TxDOT from continuing to operate the route as a toll project. The bill was passed by both the Texas Senate and Texas House of Representatives on May 30, 2017, was signed by the governor on June 9, 2017, and took effect September 1, 2017.

Texas State Highway 255

GA400 stopped collecting tolls on November 22, 2013 at 11:08 am.

Georgia State Route 400

Two toll roads in Kentucky removed their tolls in 2006, the Audubon Parkway and the Natcher Parkway, and another two removed their tolls in 2003, the Cumberland Parkway and the Hal Rogers Parkway.

Kentucky actually had 10 different toll roads and removed tolls from all of them from 1975 to 2006!

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

And that was mainly because ADOT & MAG fudged their budgets so much that it caused an audit in the early 1990s. The audit revealed that there was mis management of the funds that were allotted to them for freeway construction. ADOT blamed the recession that occurred at the time, but there was a great deal of poor planning and squandering on their part. I wish Symington would not have removed this freeway (or the Grand Expressway & Paradise Freeway for that matter) ... but since ADOT claimed that they could not finished what they started, Symington really had no choice but to axe the projects that were less essential at the time in order to allow the other freeways (51, 101, 202) which were more essential to be completed.

Can you link us to a copy of this audit and associated findings? I have never heard of this audit. Surely, if it found that ADOT was squandering funds and engaging in poor planning practices, there would be some record in the Arizona Republic. A link would be useful. If you can't produce any proof, it's probably some inaccurate, made up story.

I know that ADOT was forced to sell some of its right of way to developers because voters turned down Proposition 400 in the Fall of 1994. MAG and ADOT have to rely on voters to extend the countywide sales tax for transportation funding in order to fund freeways that were included in the 1985 plan. That prevented them from building the freeway during the 90s, along with the Paradise Parkway, which already had massive public opposition.

Originally Posted by Valley Native

moving at a slow pace because it's funded by the ALCP, which is managed through MAG. Get the government out of it and make it a privatized toll road, and I'll guarantee that construction of Northern Parkway would accelerate & extend to Grand Avenue within a few years.

It's moving slowly because there was a massive recession that brought lower than expect sales tax receipts. When people don't spend as much money, sales tax revenue goes down as well. MAG didn't anticipate a recession. When you don't receive the amount of money you initially anticipate, you have to make choices about what to fund and what not to fund. Pretty simple explanation.

There has also been a lot of resistance in neighborhoods adjacent to the proposed Northern Parkway about the initial design.

Tell us more about your toll road proposal. Would we turn every roadway that is currently public into a private thoroughfare and toll it? Would people need to pay a toll just to leave their driveway? Who would be accountable if the toll authority decided it wanted to charge people $15/mile to drive across McDowell? Who would be accountable if the private authority decided to stop maintaining a roadway? How would the price of commodities be affected by trucking companies who would have to pay all these tolls?

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

No toll roads. One of the worst things about Texas is the toll roads.

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

No toll roads! One of many reasons I'll never consider living in Texas or Florida

OK, then both of you must be happy with needless delays of these freeway projects. Expect that to continue with ADOT running the show.

Originally Posted by Roadwarriors79

With all that being said, the only tolling I would consider acceptable would be either tolled express lanes or HOT lanes, or a toll highway with free frontage roads on either side. Give drivers the option to pay a toll or not pay a toll on any specific corridor.

I've been suggesting HOT lanes as a possibility for a while. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try them here. Apparently, they work well in parts of southern CA.

Originally Posted by new2colo

Can you link us to a copy of this audit and associated findings? I have never heard of this audit. Surely, if it found that ADOT was squandering funds and engaging in poor planning practices, there would be some record in the Arizona Republic. A link would be useful. If you can't produce any proof, it's probably some inaccurate, made up story.

Obviously you haven't heard of it because you were not here in the early '90s when this happened. There are records of this in the AZ Republic, but they're archived articles. Because they're in the archives, there are no accessible web links ... however, you can go to the AZCentral website and search in the 1991 archives for the audit report & pay a fee, or go to a library and do the research. In the meantime, this should give you a head start:
* September 10, 1991 article entitled "Audit: ADOT failed to control budget"

Originally Posted by new2colo

I know that ADOT was forced to sell some of its right of way to developers because voters turned down Proposition 400 in the Fall of 1994. MAG and ADOT have to rely on voters to extend the countywide sales tax for transportation funding in order to fund freeways that were included in the 1985 plan. That prevented them from building the freeway during the 90s, along with the Paradise Parkway, which already had massive public opposition.

The voters rightfully voted against it because of the 1991 audit. Simply put: voters did not trust ADOT or MAG to manage taxpayer money at that time.

Originally Posted by new2colo

It's moving slowly because there was a massive recession that brought lower than expect sales tax receipts. When people don't spend as much money, sales tax revenue goes down as well. MAG didn't anticipate a recession. When you don't receive the amount of money you initially anticipate, you have to make choices about what to fund and what not to fund. Pretty simple explanation.

Once and for all: put aside the recession that occurred over 10 years ago! We have been in a prosperous economy for at least 7 years, and especially in the last 3 years. The amount of growth here in the last few years has more than made up for what we lost out on between 2008 & 2011 ... and with growth comes increased tax revenue for things like roads. ADOT & MAG should have more than enough revenue to not only accelerate construction on Northern Parkway, but on the other planned freeways that voters approved back in 2004. And what about I11? NDOT already completed a section of that south of Vegas, but ADOT still doesn't even have the plans in place for the finalized route!

Originally Posted by new2colo

Tell us more about your toll road proposal. Would we turn every roadway that is currently public into a private thoroughfare and toll it? Would people need to pay a toll just to leave their driveway? Who would be accountable if the toll authority decided it wanted to charge people $15/mile to drive across McDowell? Who would be accountable if the private authority decided to stop maintaining a roadway? How would the price of commodities be affected by trucking companies who would have to pay all these tolls?

Do you want freeways to be built as planned, or not? It wouldn't make sense to convert interstate highways like I10 into toll roads, but smaller projects like Northern Parkway could be experimental toll roads, and I'll guarantee that they'd be built faster & with more efficiency than ADOT could ever hope to.

Of course there's a possibility that the private agency could go out of business, but that's where another private agency would pick up where they left off ... just like a bank, insurance company, etc. Think of tolls as user fees. You essentially pay user fees for goods & services you receive when you go shopping, hire a contractor, or nearly anything else. So why should transportation be different?

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

OK, then both of you must be happy with needless delays of these freeway projects. Expect that to continue with ADOT running the show.



I've been suggesting HOT lanes as a possibility for a while. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try them here. Apparently, they work well in parts of southern CA.



Obviously you haven't heard of it because you were not here in the early '90s when this happened. There are records of this in the AZ Republic, but they're archived articles. Because they're in the archives, there are no accessible web links ... however, you can go to the AZCentral website and search in the 1991 archives for the audit report & pay a fee, or go to a library and do the research. In the meantime, this should give you a head start:
* September 10, 1991 article entitled "Audit: ADOT failed to control budget"



The voters rightfully voted against it because of the 1991 audit. Simply put: voters did not trust ADOT or MAG to manage taxpayer money at that time.



Once and for all: put aside the recession that occurred over 10 years ago! We have been in a prosperous economy for at least 7 years, and especially in the last 3 years. The amount of growth here in the last few years has more than made up for what we lost out on between 2008 & 2011 ... and with growth comes increased tax revenue for things like roads. ADOT & MAG should have more than enough revenue to not only accelerate construction on Northern Parkway, but on the other planned freeways that voters approved back in 2004. And what about I11? NDOT already completed a section of that south of Vegas, but ADOT still doesn't even have the plans in place for the finalized route!



Do you want freeways to be built as planned, or not? It wouldn't make sense to convert interstate highways like I10 into toll roads, but smaller projects like Northern Parkway could be experimental toll roads, and I'll guarantee that they'd be built faster & with more efficiency than ADOT could ever hope to.

Of course there's a possibility that the private agency could go out of business, but that's where another private agency would pick up where they left off ... just like a bank, insurance company, etc. Think of tolls as user fees. You essentially pay user fees for goods & services you receive when you go shopping, hire a contractor, or nearly anything else. So why should transportation be different?

If it needs to explained to you, you'll never get it.
Don't take my word for it, just ask the Dallas and Houston residents who are getting fed up with their toll roads, especially since tolls have been getting jacked ever higher in recent years, to where some residents are spending $6k/year just in tolls!

[KurtAZ]

Apparently, the new Freeway is too noisy: Traffic Noise on New Loop 202

“If it’s dead quiet and you just wake up in the morning just drinking your coffee, you can hear the morning rush hour traffic,” homeowner Todd Shoemaker said.

Uhm, yeah...it is a Freeway. If it is "Dead quiet" in Chandler, I can hear the existing Loop 202 and, most of the time, I-10 from my backyard.