Light rail observations and questions... (Phoenix, Tucson: rent, insurance, lofts)

[cmist]

Originally Posted by nickw252

cmist: what time of day and week were you using it? That may explain why not many businessmen/women were on it. Also, I think there are more professional jobs in the downtown Phoenix and on the Central Avenue strip than in downtown Tempe. If you were coming from the east valley to downtown Tempe that may partially explain why you didn't see many suits :-p

I realize I was using it at an offbeat hour. But to answer the question, we got on around 1pm, which is when it seemed to be the highest admission of transients and alcohol reeking / B.O. type passengers.

Along the way, we checked out alot of different stops to see what they were like and saw the different crowds getting on & off. We even took it all the way to the last stop in Mesa just to see what that was like, and that area felt the least comfortable to me out of all of them.

We didnt get back to the furthest north rail stop until around 10pm, but during the rush hour, I didnt see many business travelers going home via light rail, so its what prompted me to ask how many business people actually lost their car and use the light rail now.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by cmist

Hmm.. I wonder if I saw you? Maybe I can tell you what I saw and you can tell me what stop I was at. There was also an accident at 24th/Washington that held up our train, and a huge glob of passengers wearing flourescent pink stickers that said "I support the Temple".

LOL, I have no idea. I didn't notice the stickers, LOL, shows you how observant I am! Now I am curious for sure!

First I can tell you with certainty, there was NOT any construction going on anywhere at that hour where I was. I know I heard the construction and beeping at the Jefferson stop when we exited earlier heading eastbound during the daylight. But Westbound, the equal stop is at Washington, right?

I have no idea what station you got off on then; there is constant construction along the stops downtown because of CityScape, which a tower, multi-story shopping center, and hotel are building built, renovation of the two historic towers the Luhrs Towers and Luhrs Central Building. In downtown Phoenix there are two Washington stops, one near Central and one near 3rd St.

I know we heard the crickets sitting there at the stop itself, but the first time they brought up the odd combo of crickets and skyscrapers, we were standing looking at some church across the street, St Marys Basilica? Behind that I think I saw the Arizona center skyscraper? But we were standing in front of a convention center. They stopped to have a smoke and it was dead quiet, like I said not a single car on the roads, no other pedestrians, no chit chat, clicking heels, or evidence of human life other than buildings.

St. Mary's Basilica cannot be seen from the Central and Washington station, but maybe from the 3rd St and Washington, not sure if the convention center blocks the view completely. There are 3 or 4 Arizona center buildings you can see atop the convention center including the Sheraton...If you were near the Convention Center I would say you were at the 3rd and Washington station which is behind Phoenix Symphony Hall and that kind blocks the view into downtown where the bars and restaurants are just a block north from the station. You'd have been about 4 blocks from the construction sites at that point. Probably is significantly quieter unless there is a symphony hall event or convention or game, etc.

It was just strange, and maybe like myself, you don't pay attention to it. I know I would not have even noticed if the out of towner didnt bring it up.

I hardly use that stop, even during an event or game so I probably wouldn't have paid attention, LOL! Oh but don't worry about lack of people next time if your at that stop, there isn't anything dangerous that ever occurs except for people being ticketed for running across the tracks, LOL!

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by cmist

I realize I was using it at an offbeat hour. But to answer the question, we got on around 1pm, which is when it seemed to be the highest admission of transients and alcohol reeking / B.O. type passengers.

One thing that is interesting about Phoenix' system is that there really isn't a "peak" usage time as it stays busy all day long which is different from other LRT cities and the peaks do occur during special events and games and such. This is one reason why the Phoenix line is the busiest light rail start up in the nation. I don't really pay attention to the BO and transients since I've lived in Seattle, NYC, Chicago, etc etc and it smells particularly worse. I've never noticed a smell on the train in Phoenix compared to other cities though.

Along the way, we checked out alot of different stops to see what they were like and saw the different crowds getting on & off. We even took it all the way to the last stop in Mesa just to see what that was like, and that area felt the least comfortable to me out of all of them.

Very good perspective to hear from a suburbanite, LOL! Again, from living in other cities, NO stop in the Phoenix line is weird, uncomfortable of any thing to me; I think its interesting to hear from those not used to cities and mass transit.

We didnt get back to the furthest north rail stop until around 10pm, but during the rush hour, I didnt see many business travelers going home via light rail, so its what prompted me to ask how many business people actually lost their car and use the light rail now.

There are plenty of use business types, we make up about 30% of the over all use, and over 60% of the rush hour commute trips...since many who use the rail also live near the line or do other activities besides work, some of us change at or after the gym since its more comfortable. The business lunch crowd is particularly "suited" up as well.

[cmist]

Are they still running construction equipment in complete darkness? It was pitch black at 7:30.

Is the cityscape what they are building at the corner of Jefferson and something? I got off there seeking a bathroom and had a hard time finding one. But I heard loud construction in the area, and it was across from "A touch of yogurt" and a tavern of some sort. The building was "ONE RENNAISSANCE SQUARE". Which a funny thing is they only had a public womens room inside, and NO mens room so I had to have my company guard the door while I went in there to do #1. Sometimes you gotta live dangerously.

I didnt see the church from the Washington stop, but if you figure the walking path from central/washington to heritage square, there was no way to walk eastbound along adams, so we past adams and walked along Monroe I think? It was along this path that I saw the church, and we were on the convention center side of the street looking over at what I thought may have been the basilica.

You didnt have to be too observant to notice the flourescent pink stickers. They were probably not in your train, you couldnt have missed them.

Oh one more question... we wanted to see what the Towne Lake was all about but it didnt seem any of the stops were really close. Where would you exit to be the closest to walking to Towne Lake?

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

LOL, I have no idea. I didn't notice the stickers, LOL, shows you how observant I am! Now I am curious for sure!

I have no idea what station you got off on then; there is constant construction along the stops downtown because of CityScape, which a tower, multi-story shopping center, and hotel are building built, renovation of the two historic towers the Luhrs Towers and Luhrs Central Building. In downtown Phoenix there are two Washington stops, one near Central and one near 3rd St.

St. Mary's Basilica cannot be seen from the Central and Washington station, but maybe from the 3rd St and Washington, not sure if the convention center blocks the view completely. There are 3 or 4 Arizona center buildings you can see atop the convention center including the Sheraton...If you were near the Convention Center I would say you were at the 3rd and Washington station which is behind Phoenix Symphony Hall and that kind blocks the view into downtown where the bars and restaurants are just a block north from the station. You'd have been about 4 blocks from the construction sites at that point. Probably is significantly quieter unless there is a symphony hall event of convention or game, etc.

I hardly use that stop, even during an event or game so I probably wouldn't have paid attention, LOL! Oh but don't worry about lack of people next time if your at that stop, there isn't anything dangerous that ever occurs except for people being ticketed for running across the tracks, LOL!

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by cmist

Are they still running construction equipment in complete darkness? It was pitch black at 7:30.

Yes, of course, you should have noticed floor lights, tower lights, crane lights, "boom" lights, etc at the construction sight along with tractors, trailers, etc. They usually stop construction on late Saturday night and pick up again early Monday Morning.

Is the cityscape what they are building at the corner of Jefferson and something? I got off there seeking a bathroom and had a hard time finding one. But I heard loud construction in the area, and it was across from "A touch of yogurt" and a tavern of some sort. The building was "ONE RENNAISSANCE SQUARE". Which a funny thing is they only had a public womens room inside, and NO mens room so I had to have my company guard the door while I went in there to do #1. Sometimes you gotta live dangerously.

LOL, thats awesome! What a girl, LOL! I kid. I know that the Baja Fresh at the station next to the Renaissance Square is available. I usually run in to use it and no one ever says anythings. Not familiar with the facilities in the two towers but I do know about Tom's Tavern and A Touch of Yogurt. You could have run over to the Wyndam Hotel or used the Starbuck's bathroom. Also, Hanny's is a block from there and their bathrooms are freakin' amazing, unisex, obscure doors that make you feel like you're in a mirrored maze, LOL!

I didnt see the church from the Washington stop, but if you figure the walking path from central/washington to heritage square, there was no way to walk eastbound along adams, so we past adams and walked along Monroe I think? It was along this path that I saw the church, and we were on the convention center side of the street looking over at what I thought may have been the basilica.

Oh, yeah you would most definitely have seen the basilica then...

Oh one more question... we wanted to see what the Towne Lake was all about but it didnt seem any of the stops were really close. Where would you exit to be the closest to walking to Towne Lake?

There are two, the Washington (Washington/Center PKWY) stop next to the first Solar building and the Marque Theater which are right next to the lake. Also, the Mill Ave/3rd St station is a block south of Rio Salado...

[HX_Guy]

The construction at Cityscape has been a little slow the last couple days...nothing going on yesterday afternoon/evening and nothing going on again tonight. It's kind of grim and last I heard, Hunt Construction (the general contractor) was told to cap the hotel tower at 3 floors until further notice.

As for the dead downtown at 7pm...as much as fcorrales80 and even myself wish it wasn't true, it is true. It is NOTHING like other downtowns. Yes there are pockets of activity...but because they are pockets, you don't get that feeling of being surrounded by activity like you do in say downtown San Diego or downtown Denver. That's I think the biggest problem with our downtown...while we do have quite a selection of restaurants, they are spread all over the place. If we had them all say along a corridor, lining both sides of the street (well...like Mill Ave for example), then it would feel more like a "real" downtown.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

The construction at Cityscape has been a little slow the last couple days...nothing going on yesterday afternoon/evening and nothing going on again tonight. It's kind of grim and last I heard, Hunt Construction (the general contractor) was told to cap the hotel tower at 3 floors until further notice.

That would be sad! I remember you saying something like this before but I still haven't found this information and RED, the developer, denies it...saying the construction effort is concentrated on the "shopping center" of the development first before the tower rises and the rest of the shopping between the office/hotel,condo building are finished. I just left the area and there is plenty of construction occurring and construction workers on site...Central Ave has even been reopened to traffic because of on-going construction. Headed that way in a few and I'll take pictures of the current site tonight and post them when I get home...

As for the dead downtown at 7pm...as much as fcorrales80 and even myself wish it wasn't true, it is true. It is NOTHING like other downtowns. Yes there are pockets of activity...but because they are pockets, you don't get that feeling of being surrounded by activity like you do in say downtown San Diego or downtown Denver. That's I think the biggest problem with our downtown...while we do have quite a selection of restaurants, they are spread all over the place. If we had them all say along a corridor, lining both sides of the street (well...like Mill Ave for example), then it would feel more like a "real" downtown.

That's actually a good observation. There really isn't a "strip" for a concentration of restaurants. But in a way, I am kind of happy for that because it gives the ENTIRE downtown the availability and ability to grow all over except on one street or as one strip where the rest of the area is dead of traffic. I think this makes it more organic rather than having a development of one "central" street downtown and thus concentrating all development there. Plus, it gives each unique corner its feel; Roosevelt Row, Arizona Center, Central Ave, Roosevelt (neighborhood) , the CBD, Evans-Churchill, etc...

[fcorrales80]

I got a few pics of the construction site with my phone so not good quality...I spoke to some of the construction dudes and they are currently waterproofing the underground garage and spraying some kind of fire-retardant on the steel structures and beams; especially on the block over what was Patriot's Square Park. It was freaking cold out tonight so I didn't stick around long and ran to Sky Lounge to warm up and dance up some body heat. I'm worn; post pics tomorrow morning, goodnight all...

[exit2lef]

In Phoenix, Metro Light Rail uses what is called a "proof of payment" system. It's the norm in almost all cities that use light rail. Inspectors can board trains and ask to see a ticket or pass at any time. It happens to me about twice a week. The alternative is some sort of entry control mechanism with turnstiles. Those are generally found only in cities that use heavy rail with its more extensive station infrastructure.

Rail passengers are diverse, and it's a misconception that all, or even most, are displaced bus passengers. In fact, light rail attracts discretionary riders in ways that buses cannot even approach. When Metro Light Rail surveyed its passengers, it found that 30% are entirely new to transit and that 68% have access to a car. Certainly, some bus riders have been inconvenienced by changes, just as with any change in transit routes and schedules, but I believe that to be the experience of only a minority.

There are plans to extend light rail (http://www.valleymetro.org/metro_light_rail/future_extensions/ - broken link) in all directions; however, that's going to cost money and take time. Nevertheless, light rail is effective only in the core city and its inner suburbs. For outer suburbs, commuter rail is a better option. Light rail is now just about one year old. I'm surprised you don't know this since you've claimed in other threads to have lived here a long time. The first year has been a remarkable success story in terms of ridership well in excess of expectations.

As for Downtown activity, if there aren't major sports or cultural events going on any given night, the area south of Van Buren typically isn't all that lively. More interesting clusters of activity can be found to the north near Roosevelt.

Finally, I'll say that car abandonment is not really a goal I associate with light rail, or at least my usage of it. I'd say reduced car usage is a more realistic goal. For me, that usually takes the form of driving to a park-and-ride and catching the train there, reducing my daily commuting mileage by about 60%. Since my employer pays for my transit pass, the reduced driving saves me money. Also, since I have been "fooled by the ... phony Global Warming scientists," I'm eager to reduce my environmental impact. In the future, my family may consolidate around one car, but until then I'm content just to use my car less.

[Ritchie_az]

"fooled by the ... phony Global Warming scientists,"

I noticed you left off the "(now proven)" part of my quote....