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Here's the counter-example: you go out to dinner. there is a long line of people waiting to order their food. you wait through the line, place your order, and collect your food. then you look for a place to sit. you discover that there are no tables available because the folks waiting in line behind you have "reserved" all the open tables with their coats while they wait in line so that they will have a place to eat when they finally get their food.
you end up eating standing up next to the trash can because you don 't want your food to get cold. nice.
Whether I would be upset or not would depend on whether that was a normal situation for the restaurant, and that's probably true of most people in this situation.
This is one perfectly acceptable way in which people manage the finite resource of seating in a restaurant. If everyone expects to reserve their table before getting in line, and actually does so, there won't be any fights.
Alternatively, people could decide as a whole that the resource would be better managed if everyone got in line first and then chose their table after. And if everyone complies with that social norm, there won't be any fights either.
Either way, as long as everyone cooperates with whatever norm is present, civility will be preserved.
The problem arises when someone decides that they don't like the norm - because they are new, because they think their ideas about how things should be done are better than those of other people, because they are arrogant, because they aren't personally benefiting from the current arrangement, because they're socially inept - and decides to do whatever they want to do instead of what everyone else has tacitly agreed to do.
So instead of getting a table first, they go through the line, then whine and pout and stand at the trash can meanly eyeballing everyone else while being furious with them that they aren't doing it the way they think it should be done.
Or they get a table first and scream at anyone who tries to tell them that people usually stand in line.
Or they cause a fist-fight by tossing someone else's belongings on to the floor and taking their seat.
And then it's no longer nice or pleasant to eat at the restaurant, and everyone suffers.
And that's what's wrong with the "I pick up people's chairs, toss them into the street, take their spot, and then threaten to insert my snow shovel where the sun don't shine, and if if they all weren't such trash they'd know that I know better about how these things should be done than everyone else in my neighborhood!" crowd.
I have found the vast majority of people in Pittsburgh are pretty nice and helpful, especially when they know you are new to the area.
I have been shocked by a few odd confrontations though. One guy at Giant Eagle(Greenfield) parking lot was driving the wrong way, so we were both stuck. I looked at him and pointed to the one way sign, he got out of hs car and asked me if I wanted to fight. Mind you I am a woman 10 years older than him with an 8 year old in the back seat, plus he out weighed me by at least 80 lbs. I chalk that up to mental illness, not Pittsburgh.
Here's another example--you go to a wedding reception (without assigned seating) and arrive early, so you choose a table and hang your coat on the chair, and your wife puts something of hers on the next one. A few of your family member have done the same. You all go off briefly to mingle, get a drink, or go to the restroom or something. When you return, some strangers have moved your stuff and they're sitting in those seats. Aren't you going to feel slighted by that behavior? I think most people would. Would you remove a stranger's belongings and sit down? I think most people wouldn't.
The point is that even though that's not a case of "public" property, it's still a case of how we share public spaces. There are protocols established, uncodified and nonverbal, yet we learn them and follow them because it promotes order in our relationships with strangers.
The problem here though is that in regards to putting anything on the parking area of a public street besides a vehicle is indeed codified by law as being disallowed as abandoned property.
I think subdivisions posted a pretty good analogy earlier though:
Here's another example--you go to a wedding reception (without assigned seating) and arrive early, so you choose a table and hang your coat on the chair, and your wife puts something of hers on the next one. A few of your family member have done the same. You all go off briefly to mingle, get a drink, or go to the restroom or something. When you return, some strangers have moved your stuff and they're sitting in those seats. Aren't you going to feel slighted by that behavior? I think most people would. Would you remove a stranger's belongings and sit down? I think most people wouldn't.
The point is that even though that's not a case of "public" property, it's still a case of how we share public spaces. There are protocols established, uncodified and nonverbal, yet we learn them and follow them because it promotes order in our relationships with strangers.
Nobody responded to this post, probably because most of our focus has been on snowstorm type events, which are random and caused by nature.
I'd be interested in how everybody looks at an example like this one, where a man-made event draws large numbers of outsiders to a neighborhood in search of a parking space. A good example might be 4th of July fireworks in the neighborhood near a community park with insufficient parking lot space. Does the chair command respect there?
I'll point out that in some communities such as those with existing parking problems and access to nearby transit, "permit parking only" is the law. To me that establishes a precedent that, in an ongoing situation, the rights of neighborhood residents prevail over those of non-residents. Should the principles for short-duration events differ?
No...you see...this is like going to a movie theater seven hours before you want to see a movie and 'reserving' a seat. That is simply unacceptable. If you leave a coat on your seat for five minutes when you go to the bathroom, that is fine. That is different. If you leave a chair in a space and go to work, no one can park there for the next 9 hours! That is insanely selfish.
With any of your examples, you need a PERSON staying there to reserve a space. If you go to a lawn for the 4th of july and EVERYONE who came with you leaves their stuff on the ground for an hour while they go to grab something to eat, tough luck. You need a person physically present to reserve anything in ANY of your examples.
It is unbelievable how self-centered you are on this. Try to have a LITTLE respect for other people. You would actually make someone drive in circles for 30 minutes looking for a space when there is one open with your lawn chair in it? Unbelievable.
I have found the vast majority of people in Pittsburgh are pretty nice and helpful, especially when they know you are new to the area.
I have been shocked by a few odd confrontations though. One guy at Giant Eagle(Greenfield) parking lot was driving the wrong way, so we were both stuck. I looked at him and pointed to the one way sign, he got out of hs car and asked me if I wanted to fight. Mind you I am a woman 10 years older than him with an 8 year old in the back seat, plus he out weighed me by at least 80 lbs. I chalk that up to mental illness, not Pittsburgh.
Scared the crap out of me though!
I'm glad you said this. Although I've mostly met friendly people in Pittsburgh, I have met a few angry people too. I recently posted about a confrontation that happened Superbowl weekend. No big deal--stuff happens--but it made me see that I had developed an unrealistic expectation. I think there was a part of me that expected everyone in Pittsburgh would act like my grandma and invite me over for cookies or something like that. Some people are like that... but not everyone. It was a good reminder that you find all sorts of people in da burgh, just like in every city.
This was my encounter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caladium
FWIW I think the people of Pittsburgh are friendly, but when I drove up to Pittsburgh for the superbowl party, I met a few guys who weren't. I stopped at a place to ask directions and encountered some warehouse workers who were real jerks to me. They said some crappy things about my car (too expensive, apparently, and my Cornell sticker apparently touched off some anger against college kids). They also seemed angry about my accent (slightly southern) and I was really glad to get out of there. It was no big deal, but it shows how jerks can exist everywhere and prejudice flows in every direction.
Despite this, if I had to apply a generalization to the people of Pittsburgh, "friendly" would be a good one. But the best plan is to avoid generalizations.
This is one perfectly acceptable way in which people manage the finite resource of seating in a restaurant. If everyone expects to reserve their table before getting in line, and actually does so, there won't be any fights.
Alternatively, people could decide as a whole that the resource would be better managed if everyone got in line first and then chose their table after. And if everyone complies with that social norm, there won't be any fights either.
Either way, as long as everyone cooperates with whatever norm is present, civility will be preserved.
I tend to think of it as a resource usage problem rather than a civility problem. You want to maximize throughput by using the resources efficiently. Allowing resources that are in demand to sit reserved but unused doesn't help with the throughput.
In the case of the chair, I suppose it might have some merit, but it doesn't and can't discriminate between someone who might want to use the space for a short term --- e.g. a delivery person, a service person (maid, plumber, etc.), or someone just visiting a friend for a few minutes vs. someone who wants to use it for a long term (e.g. overnight parking). I don't think the guy driving the FexEX delivery truck should have to worry about "respecting the chair"...
I'm glad you said this. Although I've mostly met friendly people in Pittsburgh, I have met a few angry people too.
I had an odd encounter with a driver last year near Shadyside. I'm in the car with my girlfriend and this older guy is driving right on my tail, beeping and visibly screaming at me. Keep in mind we're in traffic and it's not like I can magically make it go quicker. So he keeps hollering and beeping and I brake check him. He FLIPS out, takes off his glasses and is ready to get out of the car and fight me. Keep in mind I'm 26 and beating up a 60 year old man with my girlfriend in the car wouldn't look good on my record. I decide to turn off to a side street before it escalated.
I've had various bad encounters with young punks, tough guys at concerts, and drunk douches, but that was one of the few times I had a bad confrontation in broad daylight with a "normal" person.
I have found the vast majority of people in Pittsburgh are pretty nice and helpful, especially when they know you are new to the area.
I have been shocked by a few odd confrontations though. One guy at Giant Eagle(Greenfield) parking lot was driving the wrong way, so we were both stuck. I looked at him and pointed to the one way sign, he got out of hs car and asked me if I wanted to fight. Mind you I am a woman 10 years older than him with an 8 year old in the back seat, plus he out weighed me by at least 80 lbs. I chalk that up to mental illness, not Pittsburgh.
Scared the crap out of me though!
Uh oh, I think maybe Giant Eagle parking lots bring out the angry and confrontational Pittsburghers! I was leaving the Monroeville GE and a man was walking SO close to me with his shopping cart to the point he was almost on my heels. I quickly looked over my left shoulder thinking it was someone I knew trying to purposefully harass me. I don't recognize the guy at all--so I keep walking. We get to the crosswalk and had to stop. He positions his cart up alongside my right leg. At this point, I turned around and said, "Is everything ok?" Well, that simple question set this man OFF. It turned into a screaming match and luckily, my friend that I was with scared the pants off the guy...my friend is not a guy you want to make angry. So, yeah, that's that! I BLAME GIANT EAGLE!
But as Sideblinded said, these are mentally unstable people that are found everywhere, not just Pittsburgh. Anywhere there are humans, there are good and bad humans--some areas just have higher concentrations of one or the other!
I tend to think of it as a resource usage problem rather than a civility problem. You want to maximize throughput by using the resources efficiently. Allowing resources that are in demand to sit reserved but unused doesn't help with the throughput.
In the case of the chair, I suppose it might have some merit, but it doesn't and can't discriminate between someone who might want to use the space for a short term --- e.g. a delivery person, a service person (maid, plumber, etc.), or someone just visiting a friend for a few minutes vs. someone who wants to use it for a long term (e.g. overnight parking). I don't think the guy driving the FexEX delivery truck should have to worry about "respecting the chair"...
Well, resource usage problems often lead to civility problems. But I generally agree with your statement - I addressed the civility side because that's what this particular fight on City-Data Forum was about.
And unfortunately, what groups of people decide to do about problems is not always what is *rational* to do about those problems. Is the parking chair really the most effective way to manage this particular resource problem? Or is a free-for-all sharking of other people's snow-shoveling labor really the most effective way to manage this particular resource problem? The real answer is probably neither of those options, but any given neighborhood (or internet forum) isn't going to get much farther towards the solution than screaming at one another in the street over the matter.
And most individuals don't tend to think farther than "I shoveled this space and I want it when I come home" or "anyone who tries to keep me from parking here is going to get their chair put somewhere uncomfortable" - certainly not far enough to stand there and evaluate whether it's acceptable for elderly grandma neighbor or FedEx guy to have the spot instead, or exactly how long a parkee should be allowed to use a space that had a chair in it, whether it's ok to shark or not shark spaces when there's a special event in the neighborhood, whether it's more important in the long run to have that spot right now or to maintain good relations with the neighbors, etc etc. They just want to indulge their het-up emotional hissy fit about what they themselves personally want RIGHT THIS MINUTE, DAMMIT!
And that's where laws come into the picture, I think. Someone with the brains and time to sit around and think about what is actually sensible to do finds a good solution (one hopes, anyway), passes a law about it, and enacts consequences for non-compliance. Laws bypass the stupid in the world (both the group stupid and the individual stupid) and prevent street wars over issues like parking spots.
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He FLIPS out, takes off his glasses and is ready to get out of the car and fight me. Keep in mind I'm 26 and beating up a 60 year old man with my girlfriend in the car wouldn't look good on my record. I decide to turn off to a side street before it escalated.
But I generally agree with your statement - I addressed the civility side because that's what this particular fight on City-Data Forum was about.
