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Female pro-choicers think "I want a way out if I don't want the baby. But if I want the baby, I don't want the male to have a way out."
Male pro-choicers think "Both genders should have a way out. They should both have the choice of whether or not to pay for a baby."
I'm female and agree that both should have the option to be a parent or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
Not all women agree with your nightmare excuse for pregnancy. No one has attempted to challenge ChocLot's excellent post below:
I'll bite. Pregnancy for me was an emotional and physical hell worse than I could have ever imagined. I watched as my body went from fit and capable of running 5 miles breathlessly, to a lethargic mess barely able to go grocery shopping. I had "morning" sickness every single morning, noon, and night from 8 weeks to deliver day. Stock in DumDums and other lollipops probably shot up because I depended upon them to not get sick every 30 minutes - only every two hours. I never had insomnia until pregnancy. I never knew depression until pregnancy.
Delivery nearly killed me. And by nearly, I was almost comatose for several hours and had machines forcing me to breath. I honestly can't even remember 95% of what happened after I was given an epidural - just bits and pieces. Surprisingly, I didn't have a c-section. I do remember being able to push my daughter out. However, it tore me so badly that it took almost an hour to sew me back together and I lost so much blood that I had to be given some. It also left me sterile. For 6 weeks I would need percocet just to do simple things like lie in bed or roll over... let alone sit up or take care of my newborn child.
So yes. I went through hell to have my daughter. From the time I realized I was pregnant up until my daughter being two months old, that was the absolute worst and hellacious time of my entire life. And to top it off, I have physical scars and marks from pregnancy; reminders of the entire ordeal.
But really. What does it matter the percentage of cases like mine? The fact is: it can and does happen. And because I went through it firsthand, I could never ask or force another female to potentially face that horror if she was unwilling or was not ready.
As for the guy's side of things. I don't know what it's like to be forced to pay for a child against my will. I can't imagine it. I also cannot imagine the concept of actually wanting to give up parental rights and responsibilities. However, I do agree that guys, like girls, should be able to separate from an unwanted child (within a specific period of time) emotionally and financially should they decide that parenting is not in their life plan.
I do not agree with the concept of a guy leading a girl on ("I'll be there") until the "point of no return" in a pregnancy then turning around and saying "Nah, I don't want a part" and walking away. Should there be a time where guys can easily rid themselves of responsibility, the "yay" or "nay" should be legally done on paper so as to avoid "he-says-she-says" scenarios.
Way to completely miss the point. If she has the baby, of course she (along with the male paying child support) has to pay.
I meant she can get an abortion if she doesn't want to pay for a baby. An abortion is a one time fee and way cheaper than all the costs of raising a baby for 18+ years.
If the male doesn't want to pay for the baby, he has no options.
No I dont think I missed the point. I think as much as you are promoting abortion, it sounds as if your true complaint is that a women can have an abortion and wont have to suffer punishment and shame for having premarital sex by being strapped with a baby while a man cant force her to have an abortion. In your mind Its not about paying at all, its about control.
If she has an abortion neigher pays, if she puts the child for adoption, neither pays. If she has the child she still pays.
No I dont think I missed the point. I think as much as you are promoting abortion, it sounds as if your true complaint is that a women can have an abortion and wont have to suffer punishment and shame for having premarital sex by being strapped with a baby while a man cant force her to have an abortion. In your mind Its not about paying at all, its about control.
If she has an abortion neigher pays, if she puts the child for adoption, neither pays. If she has the child she still pays.
When you responded to my post, you were responding as if the hypothetical woman had the baby. You were giving examples of stuff she would need to pay for even if she got child support.
But my post was about the woman being able to get an abortion if she doesn't want to pay. So the examples of a woman paying for a baby she had were irrelevant.
No, I'm not complaining at all about women getting abortions. If she doesn't want a baby, I think she should get an abortion. I just think the male should also have an option to avoid paying for an unwanted baby.
The way it is, I think it would be fair for men to force women to get abortions. If they can force us to pay, we should be able to force them to get an abortion.
But that just goes to show how inconsistent this whole thing is. Women can force men to pay, but we can't force them to get an abortion.
You say it's all about control with me. But I think it's all about control with the women. They can control a man by forcing him to pay some (not all) of the costs of parenthood. But we can't force them to get an abortion. We can't force them to pay for an unwanted baby (and I'm not saying we should).
Yes, if a woman has a baby, she still pays. But she made the choice to have the baby, so she can't complain.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience and am happy to hear you lived to tell the story. I do not discount any woman's negative experiences with pregnancy and agree that I will never know what it is like.
I'm glad you agree with my main viewpoints here. I too, do not want a man to be able to lead a woman on and then opt out. If he tries to get out of parenthood after the abortion time period passes, he should definitely be on the hook legally.
The fact that we agree on almost everything here despite your hard pregnancy, helps strengthen the idea that pregnancy, good or bad, has nothing to do with if a man who didn't want the child opts out or not. Therefore, it shouldn't be used as a mitigating circumstance for allowing an unequal situation to continue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita Mordio
I'm female and agree that both should have the option to be a parent or not.
I'll bite. Pregnancy for me was an emotional and physical hell worse than I could have ever imagined. I watched as my body went from fit and capable of running 5 miles breathlessly, to a lethargic mess barely able to go grocery shopping. I had "morning" sickness every single morning, noon, and night from 8 weeks to deliver day. Stock in DumDums and other lollipops probably shot up because I depended upon them to not get sick every 30 minutes - only every two hours. I never had insomnia until pregnancy. I never knew depression until pregnancy.
Delivery nearly killed me. And by nearly, I was almost comatose for several hours and had machines forcing me to breath. I honestly can't even remember 95% of what happened after I was given an epidural - just bits and pieces. Surprisingly, I didn't have a c-section. I do remember being able to push my daughter out. However, it tore me so badly that it took almost an hour to sew me back together and I lost so much blood that I had to be given some. It also left me sterile. For 6 weeks I would need percocet just to do simple things like lie in bed or roll over... let alone sit up or take care of my newborn child.
So yes. I went through hell to have my daughter. From the time I realized I was pregnant up until my daughter being two months old, that was the absolute worst and hellacious time of my entire life. And to top it off, I have physical scars and marks from pregnancy; reminders of the entire ordeal.
But really. What does it matter the percentage of cases like mine? The fact is: it can and does happen. And because I went through it firsthand, I could never ask or force another female to potentially face that horror if she was unwilling or was not ready.
As for the guy's side of things. I don't know what it's like to be forced to pay for a child against my will. I can't imagine it. I also cannot imagine the concept of actually wanting to give up parental rights and responsibilities. However, I do agree that guys, like girls, should be able to separate from an unwanted child (within a specific period of time) emotionally and financially should they decide that parenting is not in their life plan.
I do not agree with the concept of a guy leading a girl on ("I'll be there") until the "point of no return" in a pregnancy then turning around and saying "Nah, I don't want a part" and walking away. Should there be a time where guys can easily rid themselves of responsibility, the "yay" or "nay" should be legally done on paper so as to avoid "he-says-she-says" scenarios.
The fact that we agree on almost everything here despite your hard pregnancy, helps strengthen the idea that pregnancy, good or bad, has nothing to do with if a man who didn't want the child opts out or not. Therefore, it shouldn't be used as a mitigating circumstance for allowing an unequal situation to continue.
The only thing that should be unequal in today's society is the scenario of a woman not wanting a child/pregnancy but the father does.
It is unequal because he cannot (and should not have the power to) force her to carry-to-term against her will. However, she can get an abortion against his will. The concept of "the child is kinda stuck to her uterus" is a big mitigating circumstance for allowing this form of inequality to continue.
If you give me your state, I'd be happy to look it up and post the results, even if it goes against my position. I'd certainly like to know if the men you know were able to sign over their parental rights without the agreement of the judge and possibly the mother. That's not unilateral if you have to get one or two other people's permission. There is no judge or father permission for abortion (and there should not be), so it's not an equal comparison.
What does the challenges of a voluntary pregnancy have to do with allowing the man to opt out of parenthood without permission? Your pregnancy would be exactly the same whether the man is in the picture or not, since a hypothetical man discussed in this thread doesn't want the baby.
Using the "you're not a woman" argument is fine, just realize that you still had a CHOICE to go through with the pregnancy. If your pregnancy wasn't a good experience, I'm sorry to hear it. But once again, if you ever have an "oops" in the future, you can opt out of parenthood by having an abortion without anyone's permission. My only goal here is to give men that same option to opt out without permission. I am not trying to take any options or rights away from women.
The 80s are no longer here, that's like me as a Black man erroneously using pre-1960s America as a debating tactic in a race thread. I'm sorry you went through that, but it's still not an excuse to accept this unequal treatment to men who didn't do anything wrong to you. Let's be happy those days aren't here anymore and you wouldn't have to deal with being fired or strange looks if you were pregnant today.
Not all women agree with your nightmare excuse for pregnancy. No one has attempted to challenge ChocLot's excellent post below:
I am glad that you broke out of poverty. I don't see why you disagree with me since you say you don't want to be dependent on a man. What I'm advocating for changes nothing for women's rights.
Each woman is different, and I think I stated that in one of my posts. Choclot may have four children and loved being pregnant. My pregnancy was an emotional nightmare, not a physical one. I've already stated why and you chose to skim over that in your last post. I love being a mom of ONE, but hated damn near every second of being pregnant. As I said, physically pregnancy and birth were easy for me. Very easy. I had no physical problems and remained very active. Crap! I was doing yoga during labor, and I had my child without pain meds, so we all have different pain tolerances and no two pregnancies are the same.
I'm in Oklahoma. And I stated the two men I knew who signed their rights away did so long ago.
Yes, I made the choice to have my daughter. It wasn't an easy decision, because I had no desire for any kids and sure the hell wasn't ready at 26. Still, I'm glad I made the decision I made.
As for men, they are in a different position than us women and that will not ever change. I don't know what to tell you about a financial obligation toward a child. To me, the financial asepct is the least of the worries. For a child, the most important this is to have two parents who sincerely love and want the child. Her dad remained in her life until his death. How many times have we seen absent parents? Usually, it's the man. Increasingly, we see more women who abandon that responsibility. Love and time cannot be forced. My daughter got lucky. She had two full-time parents though after the age of 5 they weren't under the same roof. I didn't force financial responsibilty on her dad. Musicans/artists are generally a broke lot. He chose to be in her life and I chose to allow it regardless of finances. Our daughter got the benefits. Had he chose to be a dead beat dad who wanted nothing to do with her then there isn't a damn thing I could have done. Love cannot be forced.
You choose whether or not you want to be involved. If you don't want to be then don't be. You can see what options you have toward financial obligations and sign your rights away. That's your option.
You are right. As the male in this you cannot force an abortion. There are differences between men and women. We all have to deal with it from our perspective. If you personally feel as strongly as you do about not having an equal say in a pregnancy then I recommend a vasectomy.
I am damned glad I'm beyond the age of pregnancy. If someone else wants to birth kid after kid then that is their choice. I'm not one of them. I had a blast raising my daughter, and I think a good reason I enjoyed it as much as I did was because I only had to focus on one.
I am pro-life, but can understand certain valid reasons for abortion. I just don't think it's an accepatable birth-control method.
Yes, you are not a real man if you don't accept responsibility.
I can not speak for women.
Having an abortion has physical, mental, emotional, monetary costs. Taking a life has repercussions, too many to mention.
What if birth control fails? Do you think abortion is acceptable then?
And if a real man accepts responsibility, I'm proud to not be a real man. Not that I'm ever going to be put in that scenario. I stay celibate.
So you say you can't speak for what makes a real woman? But you insist abortion has physical, mental, and emotional costs? How would you know if you're a male? And abortion is not taking a life. A fetus is not life.
I am pro-life, but can understand certain valid reasons for abortion. I just don't think it's an accepatable birth-control method.
Yes, you are not a real man if you don't accept responsibility.
I can not speak for women.
Having an abortion has physical, mental, emotional, monetary costs. Taking a life has repercussions, too many to mention.
Hello buddy,
If you are pro-life, my points in this thread are not directed towards you. Pro-lifers are intellectually consistent on this topic because they don't give women or men an opt-out after pregnancy.
My viewpoints are directed towards pro-choicers, since they fight for choice after conception for women, but hypocritically fight against choice for the man.
By the way, saying "I can not speak for women" is giving them a pass. It's strange to "judge" one party while leaving the other off the hook.
Finally, yes there are various "costs" with abortion, but it's still a CHOICE that is available. One can avoid those "costs" by having the baby and raising him/her, yet a second choice. They can also avoid these "costs" by having the baby and dropping him/her to a safe haven, no questions asked. Notice there are three unilateral female choices (not counting adoptions since it's not supposed to be unilateral), and zero unilateral male choices.
The only thing that should be unequal in today's society is the scenario of a woman not wanting a child/pregnancy but the father does.
It is unequal because he cannot (and should not have the power to) force her to carry-to-term against her will. However, she can get an abortion against his will. The concept of "the child is kinda stuck to her uterus" is a big mitigating circumstance for allowing this form of inequality to continue.
Hi Rita,
I'm not for forced abortions, so we agree here. If a woman has an abortion and the man wants the baby, there should be no recourse since it's her body and doesn't affect him legally or financially.
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