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You've got that backwards, Don. I do have the capability to think for myself, and I've objectively examined the evidence and determined that the chemtrailers haven't sufficiently proven their case.
There is nothing in your psychological makeup, well demonstrated over the breadth of topics to which you regularly participate, that demonstrates an iota of "objectivity". This topic of "Chemtrails" could be used as a case study to support that statement.
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Originally Posted by swagger
Didn't you say that you've been looking at this for only a few years or so? I've been looking at the "chemtrail" conspiracy for well over a decade. You guys have failed, time after time, to prove what you claim. Year after year, new nutters come along and use the same old, tired and debunked "evidence" that their predecessors used.
As for having "the capability to think outside of the propaganda"... All I'm looking for is scientific evidence that persistent contrails are something other than that. That's it. It's a simple thing, and it should be the first thing that the chemtrailers try to prove, as without that proof, none of their other claims or concerns matter. Yet even after all these years, they still haven't been able to do it. What they do, though, is cite articles, stories and anecdotal accounts from people that don't know what the hell they're talking about. They believe what they're told without question or hesitation.
The first point of scientific analysis and discovery generally utilizes "Observation" as a primary modality ... first, observing a phenomenon, and then the collection of evidence to develop a hypothesis to explain that phenomenon based on the evidence collected.
Your version of the ideal evidence that must be part of the proof of the existence of Chemtails is conveniently (too convenient to be coincidence) impossible without the participation of those responsible for them in the first place. The dispersal of these substances are being performed at altitudes off limits to civil aviation, reserved for commercial and military air traffic, therefore, the collection of air samples at the release point is necessarily prohibited. However, air samples at lower altitudes which are available to civil aviation, as well as fall out samples at ground level have been collected which show inexplicable concentrations of barium, aluminum, and organic material such as dessicated human blood cells, which do not constitute either normal atmospheric properties, constituent chemicals in normal aviation fuels, or simple frozen water vapor, which is the composition of standard contrails.
So, the evidence you demand is certainly available to any "objective" researcher, and has been collected, analyzed and measured. A simple google search of "Chemical analysis of Chemtrails" will render you in excess of 30,000 results that should keep you busy for a while.
Here is one of those results that show the chemical analysis, including lab result documents and bar charts of the toxic elements found:
I know it's going to be difficult for you ... but do try to avoid the fraudulent tactic of impugning the source "rense" as a "conspiracy site" as the outlet of information is not the actual "source" ... just the publishing outlet. So if you are going to challenge this ... challenge the data, and be prepared to do so with HUNDREDS of additional sources that confirm these findings too.
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Originally Posted by swagger
You yourself posted a news story that had the numbers wrong, proving that you don't do even the slightest bit of investigation into your sources. You cited a letter written to a legislator and claimed it was a piece of legislation, again indicating that you don't really look at what you're posting. It's YOU that doesn't "have the capability to think outside of the propaganda," Don. You accept anything that claims to support your position, and you do it without consideration for who's making the claim and what their motivation might be. You put no effort whatsoever into evaluating the claims they're making - you accept the claims at face value, because the information supports your obvious confirmation bias.
You may think that you have science backing you up, but if you look at what you're posting with an objective eye, it'll become very clear that you don't. In order to prove what you claim, you HAVE to get in the air and take direct samples of an alleged chemtrail. Everything else you do is circumstantial, at best.
Again, another tactical approach that lacks both legitimacy and objectivity ... impugn the very sources of reports that challenge your position, or grasp at any error that can be found in those reports no matter how inconsequential to the actual existence of chemtrails. Then, fall back to the first false "Demand" of evidence impossible to secure.
This is as far from being "objective" as one can get. Your singular intent is to dismiss the existence of chemtrails, and ANY evidence which conflicts with said intent. It's rather laughable that you'd expect to be taken seriously with such absurd claims of being "objective", while simultaneously engaging in such obviously fraudulent tactics
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Originally Posted by swagger
The difference between you and me is that I don't rely on blind faith for proof of something. You do. That's your choice, but you shouldn't have any misconceptions about it - it really is just blind faith. You have no scientific evidence supporting the idea that persistent contrails are anything but that.
Now that's really quite rich .... "blind faith" is now what you'd label tens of thousands of observers who witness these chemical aerosols being dispersed overhead, around the world?
Again, observation is a fundamental element in any investigation, and this is far from "blind faith". And this method is available to everyone who is not physically situated in a locality adjacent to a busy air corridor, such as a community a few miles from Chicago's O'hare International Airport. Witnesses located in rather remote rural settings can easily take any number of clear sky days and simply observe how infrequent a commercial jet flies overhead within their field of view over the course of a few hours. Then, compare that observation with a busy "contrail" day in which the entire sky becomes engulfed in crisscrossing trails that spread out and form a blanket covering the entire sky.
As many flights as there are on a daily basis in the United States and around the world, you simply do not have such concentrations of crisscrossing flight paths of commercial air traffic outside of an air traffic hub like Chicago, Atlanta, Denver, etc. This may not make the journals of science, but it's a starting point for eliminating blind faith. Commercial air traffic patterns are by nature structured to avoid intersecting flight paths, with miles of separation required by FAA regulations. Checkerboard like patterns, tightly coupled overhead simply will not emerge under normal air traffic conditions, of course, this is just a starting point ... but it's one your version of "blind faith" continues to overlook.
The pictures above spur no interest or suggest an anomaly to only those who have perfected the art of denial and intellectual "blindness".
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Originally Posted by swagger
What's with the "think for themselves" mantra that conspiracy theorists - ALL conspiracy theorists - use? When they can't convert someone, they dismiss them as "unable to think for themselves." It's a universal trait among CTs, regardless of the conspiracy.
Pot ... meet Kettle .... this overused, worn out, inane response is applied to every single issue, no matter what the issue is. The "Conspiracy Theory" label .... the catchall phrase for universal application to anything outside one's personal "belief system" which is used so often to dismiss out-of-hand that which does not conform to their personal perception of reality.
You can measure a person's credibility by the frequency of which they apply that phrase, and believe you me ... you are one of the most flagrant and repeat offenders on this board. In that regard, your credibility is non-existent.
So, no one is trying to "convert" you ... at least no one with any actual experience of your history and tactics .... we're simply pointing out to others the inaccuracy, and questionable motives of your position which demonstrate a definitive pattern, so consistent, one could set their watch by it.
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Originally Posted by swagger
They can't accept the fact that people can review the information and reach a different conclusion. What's truly bizarre is that they know that they're such a small part of the population, and that their ideas are so widely dismissed by "otherwise" normal, rational and intelligent people, yet they see that as more evidence that they're right! Something in their mind requires that they feel superior to others, I guess. They have to be "special" in some way, and to feel that they're privy to some "secret" is as good a way as any. I suppose it's better for people to believe in conspiracies to feel important than to plot assassinations... Either way, though, the wiring in the attic is twisted with these people.
Like I said, Don, I've been looking at this subject for a lot longer than you have, and if I thought that our government was doing what you claim, on the scale you claim, I'd be the first one to make a ruckus about it. They're not, and your inability to see through all the pure BS on the Internet is your own problem. Don't try to pretend that you're any smarter or better informed about the subject than anybody else, because you're not. You need to learn how to filter the garbage out. Until you can do that, your position is going to be dismissed by everybody but your fellow chemtrailers, as they're the only ones who see all information, regardless of how ridiculous or scientifically unsound it is, as being equal - the same as you do.
Aside from the fact that anyone who has participated in the many debates regarding the many topics to which you join would break a gut laughing at the bolded statement .... one thing is clear .... you ALWAYS take the same "official position" no matter what the topic. Mathematically, any form of "objectivity" would preclude such a pattern of consistency, rendering you in the category of persons that believe there is no such thing as a real "conspiracy" of any kind or nature ... which itself is so intellectually bankrupt as to render further debate with you moot.
Nevertheless, given that this is not an exercise to convince you, but to expose you ... the conversation is therefore not moot.
Contrary to your provably false claim that after exhaustive personal research, you have found no evidence of the existence of "chemtrails", the truth is, the evidence is overwhelmingly clear, and one would have to exercise the three monkey routine to miss it.
Not only do we have an observable phenomenon that is inconsistent with rapidly disappearing normal condensation trails .... along with the concentrations of which are clearly outside normal commercial air traffic patterns ... we have laboratory measured chemical analysis of the components of this aerosol poisoning of the atmosphere, which show foreign chemical concentrations that should not be present in the air samples. In absence of a rational and reasonable alternative explanation for the presence of this toxic chemical contamination, the visual observation of the release of these chemicals in the aerosol spraying operations readily visible to anyone with the naked eye should be considered ... AT THE VERY LEAST ... a potential source, in lieu of better explanation. So, your automatic dismissal of this as a "conspiracy theory" must therefore include the denial of other evidence regardless of how fraudulent such denial is.
Moreover, to coincide with the observation and chemical analysis of these phenomenon ... we also have a plethora of evidence supporting the "aerosol spraying" hypothesis in the form of real, mainstream scientific journals describing this very technology associated with "geo-engineering" to combat "global warming .... as well as other technologies that include such atmospheric activities in support of military technologies like "over the horizon" radar which rely on metallic particulate being suspended in the atmosphere .... weather modification technologies ... etc.
Furthermore, we have legislative documentation which describe and legalize such activity ... as well as international treaties which call for the prohibition of weather modification as a military weapon ... suggesting that indeed such technology exists.
We have patents for the equipment to disperse aerosol agents from aircraft, as well as actual testimony from pilots who do the freaking spraying.
Apparently, the only proof that will satisfy your skepticism is an official confession. Well, guess what? We have that too ... you just need to understand that there is more than one name for this technology other that the common term "Chemtrail. A simple google search of the phrase "DOE ARM Indirect, Direct, semi-direct aerosol scattering" will reveal a lengthy list of "Official" government operations consisting of aerosol spraying that serves as official mainstream confession that such activities are indeed real.
The search results will produce dozens of official pdf documents from sources such as the US Department of Energy and other government agencies describing the technology of "Aerosol Scattering" which even a skeptic such as yourself will find it hard to "DEBUNK".
If confessions aren't enough evidence for you ... I suggest you cannot be taken seriously on any matter, regardless of your claims of exhaustive personal research and the lack of findings.
At this stage, I will declare your position on the matter to be totally void of legitimacy ... obviously following your well demonstrated pattern of being uninformed and too quick to label the plethora of information to which you are obviously poorly informed to the false category of "Conspiracy theory".
There is nothing in your psychological makeup, well demonstrated over the breadth of topics to which you regularly participate, that demonstrates an iota of "objectivity". This topic of "Chemtrails" could be used as a case study to support that statement.
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Since don9 emphatically stated a few hundred posts ago that B2 bombers don't produce contrails because they are stealth aircraft this photograph can only be of a B2 bomber spreading chemicals in our atmosphere, finally, ABSOLUTE PROOF our government has a cover-up going on.
Great catch don9, keep up the great work of uncovering these government conspiracies!!!
And of course "THE PROOF" is what yourself, don9 and others "IN THE KNOW" have uncovered... You have uncovered the deepest darkest secrets in the world by reading between the lines from all the secret government documents you have discovered, as I said before, you, don9 and all the other "TRUE BELIEVERS" are American patriots and deserve the title "HERO'S"
It's funny, I too have "THE PROOF" that Leprechaun's for over 1,000 years have been behind all of Mankind's greatest discoveries and are actually from the constellation Cygnus breeding Mankind for their slave labor...
But no-one listens to me and the knowledge I and others have uncovered, they are ignorant and disregard our findings only at their own peril...
no wonder no one listens to you, nothing but jibberish, sad really.
As many flights as there are on a daily basis in the United States and around the world, you simply do not have such concentrations of crisscrossing flight paths of commercial air traffic outside of an air traffic hub like Chicago, Atlanta, Denver, etc.
you have ZERO understanding of EARTHS ROTATION
the many 'crisscrossing' are the EXACT SAME flight path....you do understand the earth does ROTATE
they are CONTRAILS...that is fact...
chemtrails are a MADE UP thing by people who cant handle life
GALL???? i live near an airport (JFK)..I watch planes all the time
the exact path one plane takes off with is the same path the next one takes,,but you will see the contrails have MOVED(why becasue the earth ROTATES)
to deny it, is illogical
I live between LAX, Long Beach and John Wayne airports plus we have military aircraft landing at Los Alamitos Army Airfield. I see ton's of aircraft everyday at all altitudes. I also see chemtrails almost everyday and I know the difference between contrails and chemtrails. Obama visited SoCal this past week. For a week prior to his arrival and until the day he left, 11 days, we had zero chemtrails ... very unusual ... but we did see a few contrails at high altitude but the contrail dissipated shortly behind the aircraft which is normal. The day after Obama left we saw tons of chemtrails start-up again and has continued since. If you Google Obama and chemtrails you will find numerous reports of the same situation in different cities ... the chemtrails stop a few days before Obama arrives and start-up as soon as he leaves.
Checkerboard like patterns, tightly coupled overhead simply will not emerge under normal air traffic conditions, of course, this is just a starting point ... but it's one your version of "blind faith" continues to overlook.
Of course they will. One thing that is difficult to judge from the ground due to the extreme distances and perspective distortion involved, is that contrails that appear to be cross-crossing are in fact separated by thousands of feet at least. They aren't going through each other unless another plane is using the same traffic lane at a significantly later time, after the first plane has long departed.
Also, the difference between a busy contrail day and one that isn't is often as simple as how much humidity is present in the upper troposphere. If the air is near the saturation point, water vapor from jet exhaust will condense into water droplets and freeze into ice crystals almost immediately, and will persist for quite some time. If the atmosphere is very dry, the contrail will be short-lived. Persistent contrails are just that: persistent contrails caused by atmospheric saturation by water vapor. It does not in any way imply chemical spraying. That's just an enormously ridiculous leap to make.
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