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Happens all the time in Hollywood and yet these are the people who seem to be championing the "poor" and their cause? Personally, Id want my role model to be someone who had nothing and made something of themselves. Used to be the "American dream", though these days we tend to look at all those who made their success through luck, fad, and hype as models for successful venture. /shrug
LOL happens all the time in smalltowns and cities alike. I have never lived in a town that didnt have atleast 1 politicians kids screwing up. Off to college they go and all is forgotten.
The point is poor is a condition that can be over come. You work hard gain a good reputation get a job from someone who has come to know you through your old job pays better. Work hard for them and get promoted build on that reputation. Maybe learn the trade well enough to start your own business. Only in america do we have such great opprotunities, and so many options to change our lives.
5 kids in my family growing up poor. I do mean dirt poor. 4 out of 5 are mid to upper middleclass today. The 5th and oldest is low middleclass. Sometimes you have to move away, My short cut was I went into the service. saved money like I'd never get another dollar for life. Got out did construction for a short while, landscapeing, and even worked in a nursing home. Welcome to the suck on that last one. I applied for every better job I saw advertised. Finally tested for P&G all but aced the test, passed my interview and was hired. Once hired I reapplied my farmers work ethic to the job and was promoted rapidly. This happens everyday in america for many people. Those that try.
LOL happens all the time in smalltowns and cities alike. I have never lived in a town that didnt have atleast 1 politicians kids screwing up. Off to college they go and all is forgotten.
The point is poor is a condition that can be over come. You work hard gain a good reputation get a job from someone who has come to know you through your old job pays better. Work hard for them and get promoted build on that reputation. Maybe learn the trade well enough to start your own business. Only in america do we have such great opprotunities, and so many options to change our lives.
5 kids in my family growing up poor. I do mean dirt poor. 4 out of 5 are mid to upper middleclass today. The 5th and oldest is low middleclass. Sometimes you have to move away, My short cut was I went into the service. saved money like I'd never get another dollar for life. Got out did construction for a short while, landscapeing, and even worked in a nursing home. Welcome to the suck on that last one. I applied for every better job I saw advertised. Finally tested for P&G all but aced the test, passed my interview and was hired. Once hired I reapplied my farmers work ethic to the job and was promoted rapidly. This happens everyday in america for many people. Those that try.
Service is a good way. I had several friends do the same and came back with a degree to show for it. I considered it, but got off on to other projects.
I don't think people want to accept that it can be "overcome". It is so much easier to point a finger at something else and say "its the cause of my problems". It seems responsibility these days is like poison to some people. They run from it as if it was out to take their life away. /sigh
There was a report I read a long time ago comparing the poor in america to 3rd world countries. It doesn't make anything a fact, its just an observation. They compared basic living necessities in the US to those in those other poor countries. Their observations showed that while they are poor in the US, poor seemed to have a different "meaning" in the US as it is in other countries.
If I compared myself to Britney Spears who pulls in an estimated 700k a month, well... I am poor beyond measure, but if I compare myself to some low income families in some cities, I am quite rich and have been told this by some friends who were making much less than I. Heck, my dads side of the family were filled with people thought my dad was super rich and I can't help how funny it was knowing the truth about my parents income at the time. They were responsible, so they could afford some things. That translated to "silver spoon" and your filthy greedy rich by his side of the family.
Point is, much of it is a perspective issue. There are problems, but our poor in the US are not as poor as some would claim them to be.
I would say they're not nearly as "pampered and lazy" as others would claim them to be.
Thats why your research. We moved to a better place. We knew there would be jobs, not because we "thought" so, but because we "knew" so through our research.
When we moved, we had done the math on just about every aspect of the economic, social, and political infrastructure here. We had jobs in less than a week.
People can move, they have to look at the numbers. Learn about what will help them, educate themselves. Heck, I called Texas police stations to get crime reports on areas. I called the City Hall and asked for statistics on their economy. I knew the wage index and their unemployment rates, their level of job availability and educational requirement percentages.
There were better cost of living areas in other states, but not with the balance we were looking for. We needed everything to be just right to fit our needs. People can do it, it is just scary and some are unwilling to put in that level of commitment.
Would you consider an unwillingness to sever oneself from one's family and place of birth, or a lack of education or access to information about the various economic conditions of areas throughout the US, or a lack of the capital necessary to make a large move to be failings of character, though, or a "refusal to take responsibility?" You seem to admit here to at least being the beneficiary of a good education (probably a college education) and a knowledge of economics. Not everyone has that.
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Irresponsibility isn't a pure translation of "its your fault". A measure of a persons character is defined not by how they succeed, but how they handle their failures. A person who always succeeds learns nothing.
These are nice words of folksy wisdom, but they don't really dispute my point.
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People have problems in their lives, we all do. Some are worse than others, but what we do with those problems and how we take responsibility for our actions and the results from them will ultimately decide our progress in life.
To some extent, but the problems themselves also tend to have a huge impact.
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If we fail to recognize that something we did may have led to our problems, then we will never learn from that mistake.
Once again, true, but I've never suggested that poor people never make bad choices.
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Just like the perception of what a luxury is and what a necessity is, there are perceptions of what is a cause of a hardship and what led to it. Refuse to honestly recognize that and you will continue to make that mistake over and over. One can not fix a problem if they refuse to accept the cause of it.
There's usually a host of causes for most economic/social problems, though.
And still you offer no proof of what you say? Can we not believe our own eyes? I believe mine. I live in a small town so it is no secret who is on welfare. When you see a new baby in the family every year like clock work. I pity the child because they without some great intervention are handicapped at birth. Like I have said and maintain not all are users and abusers. A single mom she needs our help. A teen mom? She needs and deserves our help. Families with two parents living at home and neither work????? They need a kick in the pants to jump start their work ethic. The welfare programs will never produce independance from the system. Its like putting a cast on a broken arm and never removing it. Workfare is a much better idea. It provides the same help and it is earned. No one need bow their heads in shame nor be looked down upon. Systems like work fare are already in place. URS in Pa has programs for mentally handicapped folks. Many many company's offer such things for low skilled workers. Its a win win deal dor all.
I don't think workfare is a good idea for a number of reasons... long-term involuntary unemployment does happen and you don't want to take benefits away from people who can't find a job even when they try to do so. Raising a child is a form of "work" and for the kids' sake I don't think it's a good idea to force single parents into the labor market when the time might be better spent raising kids... "Shouldn't have had kids outside of a commited relationship," you might say, but there's plenty of single mothers who likely thought they WERE in one but found out otherwise after it was too late.
It can also keep people bound to low wage jobs for fear of losing benefits if they get fired, or switch to another job with higher pay but lower security. It decreases the number of options available.
Another thing to remember is that, despite any "welfare moms with 8 kids" you might have seen recently, the fact remains that even before "welfare reform" most families on welfare had 1 or 2 kids and stayed on the system for a relatively short period of time. There weren't a lot of "lifers." Now there can't be, since the time limit's 5 years and that's IF the mom goes out and gets a job that pays low enough to keep benefits coming in. Welfare's already been turned into workfare, for the most part.
Last edited by fishmonger; 10-25-2007 at 02:46 PM..
Point is, much of it is a perspective issue. There are problems, but our poor in the US are not as poor as some would claim them to be.
According to Truthout - " UN Hits Back at US in Report Saying Parts of America Are as Poor as Third World (broken link)"
Parts of the United States are as poor as the Third World, according to a shocking United Nations report on global inequality.
[..]
It reveals that the infant mortality rate has been rising in the US for the past five years - and is now the same as Malaysia.
High levels of spending on personal health care reflect America's cutting-edge medical technology and treatment. But the paradox at the heart of the US health system is that, because of inequalities in health financing, countries that spend substantially less than the US have, on average, a healthier population
[..]
Child mortality is on the rise in the United States
For half a century the US has seen a sustained decline in the number of children who die before their fifth birthday. But since 2000 this trend has been reversed.
Even if that were in question, compared to the standards of other countries, particularly the third world, or the standards of yesteryear is largely irrelevant.
This is our society. We have to live in it. We have certain standards. Running water, electricity, clean and safe shelter. That is the basis of our societies norms. Poor people don't live in the third world. If they apply for a job and don't have a phone, they'll probably be looked at with suspicion as a possible criminal or some other mal-content. Our standards demand that you have a phone. Now, if you live in a country where most people don't have phones, then it would be a luxury.
Happens all the time in Hollywood and yet these are the people who seem to be championing the "poor" and their cause? Personally, Id want my role model to be someone who had nothing and made something of themselves. Used to be the "American dream", though these days we tend to look at all those who made their success through luck, fad, and hype as models for successful venture. /shrug
That's because the American Dream is largely a myth. It used to be a little more true, but it was over inflated hyperbole. And over the course of the last half a century, the likelihood of these things has decreased.
Thus the statistics about the US having low inter-generational mobility.
Would you consider an unwillingness to sever oneself from one's family and place of birth, or a lack of education or access to information about the various economic conditions of areas throughout the US, or a lack of the capital necessary to make a large move to be failings of character, though, or a "refusal to take responsibility?" You seem to admit here to at least being the beneficiary of a good education (probably a college education) and a knowledge of economics. Not everyone has that.
Actually, I had no college education at the time. If you noticed, I taught myself the IT industry on my own. Then I decided to go to college after I obtained the means to.
I think all of your reasons are "excuses", not legitimate reasons. As I said, my wifes friend chooses to stay in an environment that pays low and causes her a lot of financial hardships. Her and her husband can barely afford to support themselves in that environment, but you know what they did? They had a kid too, not by accident, but planned. If they choose that, then so be it. They live the way they decided to. Nobody to blame but themselves for their own decisions.
I left all of my family to move. Everyone I know, I left. Why? Because it would be irresponsible for me not to do the best that I can for myself. It would be silly for my family to expect me to live in hardship for their sake. I moved, I got better.
I also said, I went into debt to move, but because I knew that by moving it would eventually allow me to pay off that debt, it was a good decision. You have to make sacrifices to make progress. If people don't want to take opportunities that will better their life for personal reasons, then that is their choice, but don't you think it a bit silly for them to complain after they do? Worse, don;t you think it rather silly for them to expect the system to change because they decided not to? Sorry, no sympathy here. I didn't suffer so others could choose to ignore responsibility and get a free ride.
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Originally Posted by fishmonger
These are nice words of folksy wisdom, but they don't really dispute my point.
Was that the point where it isn't always their fault? That things happen that cause hardships? It is EXACTLY the point. I once had my truck break down on us when things were really hard. You know what I said to my wife? I laughed, I said it figured. Bad things happen, but you know what I didn't do? I didn't start blaming all of the things in my life on other people or things. The truck issue was partly my fault. I hadn't kept up on the breaks since we moved to a new town where we were driving much longer distances than where we lived. That increased wear I wasn't paying attention to and If I would have, it would have been a 40 dollar break change rather than a 780 dollar replacement of the discs.
So, I was responsible for it and I messed up. I could have avoided it if I was paying more attention to things, but I didn't. I blamed my lack of responsibility on the issue, had it repaired which made money even tighter and moved on. As I said, other than really specific instance, I can take the example and show how "irresponsible behavior" led to the problem.
Yes, sometimes random things out of our control happen, but they are not the rule for hardship. Responsibility is.
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To some extent, but the problems themselves also tend to have a huge impact.
Yes, some do. Yet can you honestly call them a rule? Even so, is not part of responsibility a matter of preparing for the "unexpected"? In most cases, rather than buying that movie or going to the show, it would seem putting that money into a savings account might be better spent for those times when things are "unexpected" and have a "huge impact". If you are going to say some things are beyond that, then you are now stretching to prove your point. That is, you have to use the most dire and extreme circumstance to make your claim valid. That is not the average.
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Once again, true, but I've never suggested that poor people never make bad choices.
Yet you make excuses for them do you not? I mean, we are supposed to "worry" over those who made bad choices. So much that we are supposed to nationalize a federally mandated health care system? Seems like you are asking others to pay for their bad choices. Nobody paid for mine except me. Thats how responsibility works. Tough love they call it. You "want" to help, but you do not because that would teach the wrong lesson. Let people fail, fall flat on their face. Give them the tools to help themselves and if they choose not to, then so be it. Thats a true respect for a person. Handouts are insults.
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There's usually a host of causes for most economic/social problems, though.
And there are a host of solutions. Some are willing to apply them, some are not.
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