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She was a jewess. If they choose to do a baptism for an unfortunate young teen who died so many years ago it doesn't hurt anything or help anything. It's pointless. If she was not saved before she died, she can't be saved in death. It is a false hope and a false teaching that anyone can be saved after they have died.
the rules state that you do the baptisms for your own descendants. people that don't obey that are…. *gasp* not obeying, and are therefore not in accordance with their own church (you know, the group as a whole that you are accusing).
you want to blame the whole church for those people? generalize much? have a hard time focusing on individuals and specifics much, rather than broad stereotypes and ignorant generalizations?
I'm going to do something you haven't done to anyone on this thread: be polite.
Question: What happens to a church member who breaks the rules in these cases?
There are many ways to honor a person without Baptizing them posthumously.
I find that extremely arrogant.
They didn't exactly dig up her bones and throw water on her.
How is a baptism rite in abstentia any different than people you have never met praying for you (or your soul) in abstentia? How is that different from some voodoo thing where they are sticking needles in an effigy of you?
Your country is FUBAR and you people are all puffed up about people throwing water on people.
Well, you'll get puffed up when a 20mm round from a Gatling gun on an predator drone spying on you rips you in half.
I had no idea the Mormon Church did this type of thing. How truly offensive to disrespect the beliefs of individuals who are deceased and cannot object to this.
How on earth is this offensive? If a Catholic Priest were to show up and perform last rites over me as I'm dying, I would not object. I'm not Catholic, but I have brains enough to realize that the priest thinks he is helping me and my hopes for eternal salvation. I won't actually ask for a priest to do this or try to plan for it because I think Catholicism is full of crap and not on the level with God by a long shot. The point is, I'm willing to accept another person's unsolicited saving ritual without getting offended because they mean well by it.
The entire concept of proxy baptism for the dead is actually kinda sweet. Mormons think they are helping. Would the rest of Christianity prefer it if they arrogantly claimed exclusive access to salvation (which is essentially what the majority of Christianity does) and were constantly bragging about how they were saved and everyone else wasn't? But instead, they do their genealogical research, find names of folks that are dead and do their proxy baptisms for them in hopes of helping those souls find eternal salvation. Obviously, they're trying to help.
Mormonism is certainly not unique in the notion that "We're right and everyone else is wrong." The difference here is that almost all other Christian religions take the notion of "I'm right and you're wrong" and then say/think "Those idiots are going to burn in hell for all eternity because they believed in the wrong things. Serves them right!" I think that is vastly more arrogant and offensive. Call me crazy.
To me it just doesn't make sense to get all offended by somebody trying to do something nice for me, even if I don't agree with it. You have plenty of cases of people intentionally trying to be nasty and mean and malicious. I say, save your "so offended" for those people.
Food for thought:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddler On The Roof
Constable: You're an honest, decent person. Even though you are a Jew.
Tevye: Oh... Thank you, your honor. How often does a man get a compliment like that?
Tevye: Thank you, your honor. You are a good man. If I may say so, it's too bad you're not a Jew.
Constable: [laughs] That's what I like about you, Tevye. You're always joking.
Was it mean-spirited of Tevye to say those words? Was it arrogant. Should it have offended the Constable?
Also, Oskar Shindler was posthumously proclaimed to be a righteous man by the Jews even though he was Catholic till the day he died. Where's all the outrage for that?
well, hold on. what about the southern baptist missionaries? they come to utah to convert the mormons, and i know a few mormons that hypocritically slam doors in their faces and stuff, but i also know a lot of mormons that don't mind it, that invite them in and give them something to eat, even if they aren't planning on converting to the baptist faith.
again, it comes down to perspective. it is not inherently rude to knock on someone's door with a religious message. especially if it is one about tolerance and getting along despite religious differences. when i'm not in a hurry, i try to make time for missionaries from other churches, and even when i am in a hurry, i try to be nice.
shotguns aren't really necessary there.
and beyond that, i didn't carry a message that said that "you are wrong." i came with a message that said, "there is a lot more out there." i learned as much from the people i taught and served with on my mission as they did from me––probably a lot more actually since i was a 19-year old youth.
again, intent is key here. simply disagreeing with your religion and telling you about mine is not an insult. it is not intended to offend you. if you choose to take offense, that is certainly your right, but you are the one inserting the discord into the relationship.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I have had more experiences with Mormonism then you know and its almost universally bad. With that said, not only do I live in the south, but I live in Billy Graham land, and I have never once been approached by a baptist missionary. Jehova's witnesses and LDSers are the only ones that come to the door or accost people on the street and quite frankly I think that is rude. If people what to learn about your "message" they will come to your meeting house.
As to your attitude you seem to be a very confrontational person, you tell people to grow a tough skin, you don't know or don't care that much about other people's minor sensibilities. That is why it doesn't surprise me that people have gone off the deep end with you.
In regards to discussion religion I do it all the time with my family, but I don't feel comfortable doing it in the street, with strangers who obviously don't care about what I believe in as much as they care about convincing me I am wrong and yes that is what it is about. I don't believe in Jesus, there is no way me and LDS are reconcilable on that point no matter how much bending you want to do. One the other hand I have relatives who are Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant etc. and they all know my religion and we do talk about religion, because we know each other, love each other, and are comfortable with each other knowing we can discuss this with conversion attempts. That is not how it is with Mormon missionaries on the street. Basically, the way I see it is not about manning up, but just that it just that certain topics you should not push with absolute strangers because quite frankly you don't know jack about them and some of them as you should have learned from your episode with Mr. Shotgun, take stuff a bit more seriously then you do.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 02-27-2012 at 10:21 AM..
That's REAL subjective. What's weirder than going into a church and listening to some charlatan give you a line of bullsh*t for 2 hours while passing around his plate to get his 10% of your income. Anything beyond that is just icing on the cake. It's all weird from the time you pull into the church parking lot. I don't make any distinctions beyond that point.
I mean, an "early day David Koresh?" LOL....yea, ok. Believing in a guy that supposedly walked on water, made a blind man see, brought a man back to life, and made a few million fish out of one individual fish is far further fetched than anything i've ever heard about David Koresh or Joseph Smith. Again, i don't get the distinction and i don't see how anyone in any Christian sect can throw stones at Mormons for their beliefs.
Besides, every Christian sect thinks the other ones are all wrong. If that's the case, that's pretty blatantly saying that the others are all going to hell without coming right out and saying it (unless they're pressed to do so).
So i really don't see what's the beef with Mormons or the fact that they do posthumous baptisms. So what?
And your snotty assumption that people in New Jersey are that rude just demonstrates that you are not as "polite" as you are trying to persuade others that you are.
So, "Bless your heart", as you "polite" southerners say. Yeah, we know what that really means.
Oh its not an assumption, believe me and it's good that you understand it, because your meant to. I have spent considerable time up there because I have relatives there. People from New Jersey are far more confrontational in general then people down here. You get a Southerner angry they are liable to say "bless your heart" or something of the like you get someone from up there angry and they are likely to let you know it with unambious language.
May you be baptized by a hoard of Mormons upon your death.
It wouldn't surprise me if I was. They have no respect for the views of non-Mormons when we are alive why should that change when we die?
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