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You have very poor communications skills, and you're not going convince anyone by making adhominem attacks. But please educate us and tell us what critical analytical errors I have made regarding assimilation and please tell us how I contradicted myself?
Mine are actually topnotch and without agenda. Yours are becoming increasingly hysteric as you are pressed to defend your statements when challenged.
You contradicted yourself by acknowledging the differences between early vs. later generation of Cuban arrivals regarding commonality with contemporary U.S. standards and then proceeded to presume that assimilation would be the same result although the values and standing of both Cuban groups were/are vastly different. This is an impediment to assimilation. (Also, the exterior forces which act upon a group to assimilate have changed considerably from the first group to the latest. You presume these are constant.) These differences seriously affect their motivation or necessity to assimilate as was properly pointed out by others. Then you elected to reshape what standards of assimilation are to be used to fit your opinions.
Again your anecdotes in no way carry more weight than mine or Chicago Nut. In fact, I note you have far less actual experience in viewing the patterns of Cuban development in Miami compared to myself.
I was entirely correct that the only proper response is via data analyzed by professionals regarding Hispanic emigration otherwise it is merely opinon. I thought some of your points were correct. Obviously, I believe mine have more standing due to the inclusion of changes in Miami over the previous 40years where one needed to adapt to anglo standards vs. now where there is a considerably different environment. I also properly noted the success of other non-Cuban Hispanic groups.
I posit assimilation is truly tied to class standing regardless of nation-state origin. The wealthy class integrate easily anywhere they reside. The middle class have the necessary education and values to identify assimilation factors needed for success. Again, one sees that with the other Latin American groups who come here and surpassed the post-Mariel arrivals in the same time frame.
I didn't miss the part where you said that you know people who have been to Miami, etc.., but it appears that either you didn't read my entire post or you glossed over it, or it went over your head. Go to the last paragraph of my previous post and you will see my response.
Miami is a bilingual city, that is to say, municipal documents are printed in English and Spanish. I would imagine that for certain jobs, Spanish is required, but I would not say that you cannot get a job if you don't speak Spanish. It would be more accurate to say that you can't get certain jobs if you can't speak Spanish. Look at the economy of Miami. It's a city that relies heavily on two things: International commerce and trade and tourism. Miami is the gateway to Latin America. Most of its trade is with Central and South America. What do Central and South Americans speak? If I need to hire someone who works in an import business, will I hire someone who only speaks English even though 99% of my customers are from Latin America? If I work as the manager of a Best Western in Miami and half of my customers are rich South Americans who frequently visit Miami, will I hire a receptionist who only speaks English?
Perhaps if Miami were like Detroit that has a car industry, bilingualism would not be a problem, but when your economy is tied into commerce and trade and tourism, it becomes an issue.
This has nothing to do with Cubans not wanting to assimilate. It has to do with money and what's in the best interest of running the local economy.
When I went to Paris, I noticed that in the metro [subway station], announcements were made in FRENCH, ENGLISH, GERMAN, ITALIAN AND SPANISH. The French who are notoriously ethnocentric and proud of their language, permit this because it is in the best interest of their economy, since they rely so heavily on tourism.
I guess you don't know that English is the language of business across the globe then? Is the whole southwest also a gateway to business? I don't think so and yet the same problem occurs with other Hispanics whom mostly won't use English as their primary language even when they know how to speak it. Many of them have been here for decades also.
Good points all the way around, especially with respect to International trade. The US makes money because of this, so it really is a benefit to us all. Bilingual capibility or more is absolutely needed for International trade.
I can understand the source of the Xenophobia though. It would be no different than a large group of Engish speaking Americans moving to Cuba and some refusing to learn Spanish. When Florida or California trend tawards being a sepratist state (The Re-Conquista move in the S/W or Quebec come to mind) based on Culture and language, then that would be a problem.
Xenophobia is a fear of strangers. It has nothing to do with this language discussion.
Mine are actually topnotch and yours are becoming increasingly hysteric as you are pressed to defend your statements when challenged.
You contradicted yourself when describing the differences between early vs. later generation of Cuban arrivals regarding commonality with contemporary U.S. standards and then proceeded to presume that assimilation would be the same result although the values and standing of both Cuban groups would be vastly different.(Also, the exterior forces which act upon a group to assimilate have changed considerbly from the first group to the latest. You presume these are constant.) These differences seriously affect their ability to assimilate as was properly pointed out by others. Then you elected to reshape what standards of assimilation are to be used to fit your opinions.
Again your anecdotes in no way carry more weight than mine or Chicago Nut. In fact, I note you have far less actual experience in viewing the patterns of Cuban development in Miami compared to myself.
I was entirely correct that the only proper response is via data analyzed by professionals regarding Hispanic emigration otherwise it is merely opinon. I thought some of your points were correct. Obviously, I believe mine have more standing due to the inclusion of changes in Miami over the previous 40years where one needed to adapt to anglo standards vs. now where there is a considerably different environment. I also properly noted the succes of other non-Cuban Hispanic groups.
I posit assimilation is truly tied to class standing regardless of nation-state origin. The wealthy class integrate easily anywhere they reside. The middle class have the necessary education and values to identify assimilation factors needed for success. Again, one sees that with the other Latin American groups who come here and surpassed the post-Mariel arrivals in the same time frame.
If you say so that your observation is topnotch. Whatever rocks you boat, or makes you happy. But, hey, I know one thing that isn't topnotch and that's your reading comprehension abilities. I never said that the earlier waves of exiles [pre-Castro] would assimilate at the same rate as later exiles, that is to say be constant. In fact, I agreed with you that it was easier for earlier waves of exiles to assimilate [for obvious reasons, exact quote]. What I said is that time is also a factor in the assimilation process. That is to say, Cubans have arrived in different waves and that we can't expect someone from a recent wave to be as assimilated as someone from an earlier wave, other factors being equal, because of the time factor. Example: the longer you are in the United States, the more time that you have to learn the ways of the country. In general, [and I know that there are exceptions] someone who arrived last year is not going to be as acculturated as someone who arrived ten years ago. The person who arrived 10 years ago has 9 years of immersion into the culture over the person who arrived one year ago. I noted that the person's age is also a factor in assimilation. Someone who finishes school in the US will acculturate quicker than someone who arrives as an adult.
That said, Miami is not the only city that Cuban Americans live in. The question asks, "Do you consider Cubans [NOT MIAMI CUBANS] the most assimilated of Hispanics into American culture?" Yet, you write as if there are no Cubans outside of Miami when there are sizable Cuban communities all over the United States, from Los Angeles to Texas from Chicago to New York, from New York to New England. Cubans live in all 50 states including Montana and Alaska, there was even a Cuban American mayor in Witchita, Kansas at one time.
Regarding Chicagonut, he has not given any anecdotes. He admits that he has never been to Florida and says that he is going by what he reads on this board and by what he has been told from people who have been to Florida.
Again, you keep on countering points that I never made. I never said that class and wealth are not factors in assimilation. Why are you bringing this up? Its obvious that the wealthier that you are, the more resources that you will have at your hands which will in turn faciliate assimilation in a new country. That's a no-brainer. Did I ever say that was not the case?
By the way, [and here you go again], I never elected to reshape the standards of assimilation. I simply stated that when considering how assimilated a person is, the only standard is not whether that person uses English has his primary language, and then I mentioned some other standards.
Finally, whether there are pockets of well-to-do non-Cuban Hispanics who are assimilating quicker than recent arrivals from Cuba is neither here nor there. As a group, Cubans are more acculturated into American society and infinitely more successful than all other Hispanic groups. They have an economic and political base that far surpases all other Latin Americans. In fact, the political and economic power of the Cuban community is far beyond what one would expect of a group the size of that community.
I guess you don't know that English is the language of business across the globe then? Is the whole southwest also a gateway to business? I don't think so and yet the same problem occurs with other Hispanics whom mostly won't use English as their primary language even when they know how to speak it. Many of them have been here for decades also.
I'm sorry, I can't speak for other Hispanics. Lets not compare apples and oranges. We're talking about Miami's unique position as a city of international commerce and trade and as the gateway to Latin America. As such, if you're a businessman and you want to do business with Latin America, I guess that you can be stubborn and refuse to speak English [because its the global language of business], but--all things being equal-- who do you think that the account will go to? To you or to the guy next to you who facilitates the business deal by speaking Spanish?
If you say so that your observation is topnotch. Whatever rocks you boat, or makes you happy. But, hey, I know one thing that isn't topnotch and that's your reading comprehension abilities. I never said that the earlier waves of exiles [pre-Castro] would assimilate at the same rate as later exiles, that is to say be constant. In fact, I agreed with you that it was easier for earlier waves of exiles to assimilate [for obvious reasons, exact quote]. What I said is that time is also a factor in the assimilation process. That is to say, Cubans have arrived in different waves and that we can't expect someone from a recent wave to be as assimilated as someone from an earlier wave, other factors being equal, because of the time factor. Example: the longer you are in the United States, the more time that you have to learn the ways of the country. In general, [and I know that there are exceptions] someone who arrived last year is not going to be as acculturated as someone who arrived ten years ago. The person who arrived 10 years ago has 9 years of immersion into the culture over the person who arrived one year ago. I noted that the person's age is also a factor in assimilation. Someone who finishes school in the US will acculturate quicker than someone who arrives as an adult.
That said, Miami is not the only city that Cuban Americans live in. The question asks, "Do you consider Cubans [NOT MIAMI CUBANS] the most assimilated of Hispanics into American culture?" Yet, you write as if there are no Cubans outside of Miami when there are sizable Cuban communities all over the United States, from Los Angeles to Texas from Chicago to New York, from New York to New England. Cubans live in all 50 states including Montana and Alaska, there was even a Cuban American mayor in Witchita, Kansas at one time.
Regarding Chicagonut, he has not given any anecdotes. He admits that he has never been to Florida and says that he is going by what he reads on this board and by what he has been told from people who have been to Florida.
Again, you keep on countering points that I never made. I never said that class and wealth are not factors in assimilation. Why are you bringing this up? Its obvious that the wealthier that you are, the more resources that you will have at your hands which will in turn faciliate assimilation in a new country. That's a no-brainer. Did I ever say that was not the case?
By the way, [and here you go again], I never elected to reshape the standards of assimilation. I simply stated that when considering how assimilated a person is, the only standard is not whether that person uses English has his primary language, and then I mentioned some other standards.
Finally, whether there are pockets of well-to-do non-Cuban Hispanics who are assimilating quicker than recent arrivals from Cuba is neither here nor there. As a group, Cubans are more acculturated into American society and infinitely more successful than all other Hispanic groups. They have an economic and political base that far surpases all other Latin Americans. In fact, the political and economic power of the Cuban community is far beyond what one would expect of a group the size of that community.
You lack the reading comprehension. I just read to the end of the boldfaced above and stopped after again noticing your fabrication of previous comments. Now you accuse me of it as a disassembling tactic.
I will just let it lie as Internet arguing is useless. You are just the typical Cubano who feels the need to tout Cuban supremacy. I have heard that song since the 1980s. No one believes it after seeing the lower class elements who have arrived with Mariel and after and what they have done to this city. Even the first gen. emigres state the newer intakes are no good and demonstrate why Cuba under Marxism has damaged their society. But then you have blinders on.
The image of Cuban assimilation was created by the original middle/professional class and their offspring(and their offspring) not the trash that followed in the 1980s to present. It is valid for that original group and their linkages and may be to the enlightened offspring of the newer ones. In no manner can the OP's inquiry be confirmed.
I'm sorry, I can't speak for other Hispanics. Lets not compare apples and oranges. We're talking about Miami's unique position as a city of international commerce and trade and as the gateway to Latin America. As such, if you're a businessman and you want to do business with Latin America, I guess that you can be stubborn and refuse to speak English [because its the global language of business], but--all things being equal-- who do you think that the account will go to? To you or to the guy next to you who facilitates the business deal by speaking Spanish?
All Hispanic's native language is Spanish so I don't think it is comparing apples to oranges myself. I live in Calif. and I can tell you that I rarely hear one speaking English in public but they do switch to English when they realize the person they are dealing with doesn't speak Spanish so I know they know how to speak English. From what I understand it is the same thing with Cuban-Americans. They will always prefer Spanish over English.
Since it was pointed out to you that English is the language of business I don't undersand your last statement. Even so what has that to do with Cubans choosing Spanish over English in their daily lives unrelated to business? Why this adversion for English by Hispanics in general?
You lack the reading comprehension. I just read to the end of the boldfaced above and stopped after again noticing your fabrication of previous comments. Now you accuse me of it as a disassembling tactic.
I will just let it lie as Internet arguing is useless. You are just the typical Cubano who feels the need to tout Cuban supremacy. I have heard that song since the 1980s. No one believes it after seeing the lower class elements who have arrived with Mariel and after and what they have done to this city. Even the first gen. emigres state the newer intakes are no good and demonstrate why Cuba under Marxism has damaged their society. But then you have blinders on.
The image of Cuban assimilation was created by the original middle/professional class and their offspring(and their offspring) not the trash that followed in the 1980s to present. It is valid for that original group and their linkages and may be to the enlightened offspring of the newer ones. In no manner can the OP's inquiry be confirmed.
Your communication skills are zilch and your reading comprehension is even lower. All that you do is accuse me of saying things that I never said. I don't know if its because you are so wound-up and emotional that you shoot from the hip, or if you you have genuine reading comprehension problems, or if you are just delusional. Either way, you are a waste of time, because you don't do anything to advance the argument. At least I dissect your arguments and reference your accusations. You do nothing of the kind. All that you do is make ad hominem attacks.
In any case, here you go again. THIS IS A CLASSIC CASE IN POINT: Where do you get that I have blinders on and that I don't recognize that Marxism has harmed Cuba and the character of the new Cubans? Did I say this anywhere? I recognize that many Cubans who have come from Cuba are problematic. The same thing happened to Eastern Europeans after so many years of communism. Many became drug addicts, drunks and criminals. This is what a totalitarian country can do to you.
That said, a South American like you [or as some ornery Cubans might unfortunately call you, a TF] is hardly the person to call Cubans low class. To blame Cubans for ruining Miami when Little Havana has been taken over by Central and South Americans and now its a slum, is a laugh.
All Hispanic's native language is Spanish so I don't think it is comparing apples to oranges myself. I live in Calif. and I can tell you that I rarely hear one speaking English in public but they do switch to English when they realize the person they are dealing with doesn't speak Spanish so I know they know how to speak English. From what I understand it is the same thing with Cuban-Americans. They will always prefer Spanish over English.
Since it was pointed out to you that English is the language of business I don't undersand your last statement. Even so what has that to do with Cubans choosing Spanish over English in their daily lives unrelated to business? Why this adversion for English by Hispanics in general?
Just because the native language of all Hispanics is Spanish, means nothing. There are about 23 different Latin American countries and they have similarities, but are culturally, ethnically and racially different from each other. That said, I thought that we were talking about assimilation, now you are talking about speaking Spanish in public as if this were a problem. I explained that because there are so many different waves of Cuban American migrants to the USA, not all of them feel comfortable speaking English. By the way, since when is this a problem, or how does that impact on a person's acculturation? When I go to Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, NY, all that I hear is Russian. When I go to Crown Heights also in Brooklyn, all that I hear is Yiddish. When I go to Chinatown in Manhattan, all that I hear is Chinese. Yet, I don't think that the Russians, Jews or Chinese are what we could call unassimilated.
When people say that English is that language of business, they don't mean that every businessman in the world speaks English. Just like Latin was the lingua franca of the middle ages, but not everybody spoke it. What I meant was that as a businessman, you want to cater to your clients. If you know that your clients speak Spanish and you rely on their business, you are going to speak Spanish to them. It makes them more comfortable, they are more articulate in the language, etc.. so you speak it to them to win them over and that way get their accounts, business, money. Does that make sense? As a city of international commerce and trade, business with Latin America is important to Miami. It brings in billions of dollars.
Your communication skills are zilch and your reading comprehension is even lower. All that you do is accuse me of saying things that I never said. I don't know if its because you are so wound-up and emotional that you shoot from the hip, or if you you have genuine reading comprehension problems, or if you are just delusional. Either way, you are a waste of time, because you don't do anything to advance the argument. At least I dissect your arguments and reference your accusations. You do nothing of the kind. All that you do is make ad hominem attacks.
In any case, here you go again. THIS IS A CLASSIC CASE IN POINT: Where do you get that I have blinders on and that I don't recognize that Marxism has harmed Cuba and the character of the new Cubans? Did I say this anywhere? I recognize that many Cubans who have come from Cuba are problematic. The same thing happened to Eastern Europeans after so many years of communism. Many became drug addicts, drunks and criminals. This is what a totalitarian country can do to you.
That said, a South American like you [or as some ornery Cubans might unfortunately call you, a TF] is hardly the person to call Cubans low class. To blame Cubans for ruining Miami when Little Havana has been taken over by Central and South Americans and now its a slum, is a laugh.
As usual I stop reading after the first sentence or so of your rantings as there is blah, blah, blah is all you can manage as you slobber on the keyboard.
You dissect nothing and are just a typical shake-n-bake U.S. resident with a thin veneer of civilization and the barest clue as to what constitutes an American. I do not care if you are a citizen, it takes much more than a sheet of paper to produce an American. You dissect and counter nothing except in your own mind.(very Cuban of you) You have no facts only an unfounded ethnocentric notion of the superiority of your cultural group which has no basis. Your characterization of myself is entirely erroneous as have been your opinions in this thread. You are a perfect example as to why anglos elsewhere see Miami has having descended into some hypbrid banana republic stereotype on U.S. shores.
Last edited by Felix C; 08-17-2012 at 07:18 PM..
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