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Actually there are alot of studies that does show differences of intelligence.
Intelligence is usually define as has how fast someone can acquire and understand information or the ability to manipulate and process new data. Of course there are many kinds of intelligence and it is hard to quantify all. But test such as IQ or the army entrance examines are usually used to measure how well a person can process certain cognitive abilites. These test have routinely shown that there are indeed differences between certain human groups. Yes there is a bias component to the iq test. But when those components are taken out... the differences still appear. exhaustive studies have done by academics such as lynn, rushton, levin etc have confirm this.
To go a step further, those who believe its all about nutitrion are correct only up to a certain point. The Minnesota adoptions studies have shown that with proper environment those certain groups that lag in iq points can increase their iq if only temporarily. But those gains only last in early childhood. as adults they tended to fade away. When retested, their iq fell back to what their biological group average was.
There are literally hundreds of studies that have gone over this subject. If you are curious enough and actually want to find more info just look it up. many academic publishings have began to refute the common held belief of equal intelligence. Humans have vast differences due to different areas which each groups ancestor had to adapt to survive. Just as there are differences in intelligence between certain dog breeds, birds, and other species in the animal kingdom, It would be very ignorant to believe we humans are special and not subject to this. To point this out is to be subject to name calling or what not. This subject is a very taboo one . those who want to discuss it are merely pointing out diffrences. For that i applaud you. it takes courage to stand against the masses who are seeing the emperor's clothes.
In this country we often talk about the greatness of diversity but when someone studies and points it out they arent allowed. So which one is it? If we're all the same how come we are so different?
You're totally missing the point. I'm not arguing for or against the existence of racially-based differences in intelligence here. My question concerns the courage to be objective and truthful about matters that are highly controversial.
No I get your point. I for one will do my best to have "courage to be objective and truthful" . I will do that based on legitimate peer reviewed scientific research, however. Which nobody has yet to produce.
All I see in this thread is a bunch of guys claiming this connection based on their "personal experiences". Which doesn't cover a whole lot of weight. Sorry, no offense. I find it humorous that people continue to skirt around and support this idea without a shred of evidence to back it up.
No I get your point. I for one will do my best to have "courage to be objective and truthful" . I will do that based on legitimate peer reviewed scientific research, however. Which nobody has yet to produce.
All I see in this thread is a bunch of guys claiming this connection based on their "personal experiences". Which doesn't cover a whole lot of weight. Sorry, no offense. I find it humorous that people continue to skirt around and support this idea without a shred of evidence to back it up.
I've been following this with interest, very reluctant to "jump in"...but here goes. I'm just enough of a "maverick" to allow for the possibility that, OK, say for the sake of argument that there IS something to this..(I also LOVE the notion that there's life on other worlds, and am very intigued by some of the more interesting "conspiracy theories" out there, just to let you know where I stand.)
There's little doubt that CULTURES have differing strengths and weaknesses, and it's pretty obvious that some provide for a situation that's more modern, outward-looking, and "nicer" than others..no need to go there. (Have I ever mentioned this before?) Whether or not this can be tied in to "race", though, is highly questionable. You can probably tell that I'm a "culturalist", and for this I don't apologize.
I think that one reason we've been reluctant to get farther into this is simply the very real misgivings that we might have regarding our "findings". Let's not forget the once-legitimate study of Eugenics, and Hitler's enthusiastic use of its principles.
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that we DID happen upon a definite, irrefutable scientific link between race and intelligence---what then? What would we DO with the findings?
What if we found out that there was positive DNA-evidence that Asians were somehow genetically better able to "do" math problems, or to adapt to new technology, or to prosper in business? What if we found out that blacks just "couln't do algebra", not for lack of opportunity, but just because they didn't have the "genes" for it; or that Whites were genetically predisposed to aggression and the subjugation of other races; or that Hispanics had the "genes" to be roofers, but not to be chemists? What then? What if banks loaned money to Jews for business start-ups, because they were a "good bet", but not to blacks, because it could be shown scientifiaclly that they "weren't good at business"?
What would be the practical application of this knowledge? Would we begin assigning social status to the separate races? (That's been tried before). Would we begin channeling kiddies into "race-appropriate" classes in kindergarten? (tried before, also)---begin to OFFICIALLY set different standards of ethics and morality to each race? (been there; done that)...or start rounding up the less valuable groups to haul off to "camps"? (read up on WWII Germany)
What do we THEN do with the "misfits"--what about the white guy who "acts" black--do we re-assign him from dentist to bricklayer? What about mixed-race people?--do they get to be "Mom's" race, or "Dad's"?
What do we do with the Asian who can't do math, or would rather skateboard than do homework---should we just call him "white?", or is he still Asian? Should we begin, early in childhood, to keep close tabs on those who might be genetically predisposed to grow up to become criminals? How about "preventive" incarceration? Sterilization, anyone? (shockingly, THAT'S been used before, right here in the USA)..
We live in an increasingly shrinking world, and the findings of such "studies" have the potential for little practical good, and tremendous, earth-shaking evil. Why not study whether women are smarter than men? What do you do with THAT information? And what if you aren't HAPPY with the results?
People are endlessly individual, and the differnces between the races pale in comparison between the differences between the "good" people, of all races. and the "bad" ones.
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that we DID happen upon a definite, irrefutable scientific link between race and intelligence---what then? What would we DO with the findings?
What if we found out that there was positive DNA-evidence that Asians were somehow genetically better able to "do" math problems, or to adapt to new technology, or to prosper in business? What if we found out that blacks just "couln't do algebra", not for lack of opportunity, but just because they didn't have the "genes" for it; or that Whites were genetically predisposed to aggression and the subjugation of other races; or that Hispanics had the "genes" to be roofers, but not to be chemists? What then? What if banks loaned money to Jews for business start-ups, because they were a "good bet", but not to blacks, because it could be shown scientifiaclly that they "weren't good at business"?
What would be the practical application of this knowledge? Would we begin assigning social status to the separate races? (That's been tried before). Would we begin channeling kiddies into "race-appropriate" classes in kindergarten? (tried before, also)---begin to OFFICIALLY set different standards of ethics and morality to each race? (been there; done that)...or start rounding up the less valuable groups to haul off to "camps"? (read up on WWII Germany)
This IS a good point. That is, what would be done with the knowledge IF it could be proven there are inherent intelligence differences in what most agree are the different "races."
IMHO, in a truly free society, things would just take their natural course. Yeah, that is not much of an answer, so I guess what I am trying to say is that, in the United States, at least, we have moved far beyond a notion of Jim Crow laws, and worse. No one would support such an extreme, anymore.
BUT..so WHAT if people wanted to voluntarily "segregate"? What if there actually might be a benifit to it? What is so wrong with the idea of black kids going to black schools with black teachers as role models, SO LONG, as they are not FORCED to do so? Same with Asians, Whites, Hispanics, Indians, etc (or are there any etc's left...? LOL)
Could it be ANY worse than what is going on today? That a whole national policy is built on that all races/groups/genders have NO natural differences? And that any deviation in hiring, firing, association, etc, must, by default, be the result of hateful discrimination?
On a related tangent, it is truly scary to absolutely realize that to suggest otherwise might literally cost someone their job, reputation, etc.
BUT..so WHAT if people wanted to voluntarily "segregate"? What if there actually might be a benifit to it? What is so wrong with the idea of black kids going to black schools with black teachers as role models, SO LONG, as they are not FORCED to do so? Same with Asians, Whites, Hispanics, Indians, etc (or are there any etc's left...? LOL)
Seems like a silly idea to me. The kids all graduate and then what? Go to work in companies and be productive members of society with all these other "strange colored" people and everyone is supposed to work together just fine?
Or are you suggesting we all just split the country up into BlackLand, HispanicLand, WhiteLand, and let the Native Americans keep their reservations?
No, I think it is probably better to get the kids together and find out the other kids are not so scary, before they inheirt the biases and stereotypes passed down from their parents.
Seems like a silly idea to me. The kids all graduate and then what? Go to work in companies and be productive members of society with all these other "strange colored" people and everyone is supposed to work together just fine?
I guess whether they work or get along together just depends on individual attitudes. NOTHING, you or me, or any government mandate is going to make it any different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
Or are you suggesting we all just split the country up into BlackLand, Hispanic Land, WhiteLand, and let the Native Americans keep their reservations?
??? Where the heck do you come by the idea I was suggesting anything remotely like that? Please tell me, would you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
No, I think it is probably better to get the kids together and find out the other kids are not so scary, before they inheirt the biases and stereotypes passed down from their parents.
So, in a nutshell, you believe that government has a vested interest in forcing people to mix even if they don't want to? If you believe that? Then say so outright instead of framing it as if all bias and predjudice comes from the past generation and is something that can be "solved" by judicial fiat.
Am I a racist if I don't want my little boy and girl to be "bussed" to a school where I know for sure they are going to be terrorized because they are white?
Once again, stay on topic. If we can't, the thread will be closed.
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) Whether or not this can be tied in to "race", though, is highly questionable. You can probably tell that I'm a "culturalist", and for this I don't apologize.