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–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
That is a dictionary definition which states a truism.
What I am wondering is what has been said or stated in this thread which implies or states such a thing, in a hateful sense? Please be specific.
And, for instance, if I observe that black men tend to excell in certain sports (basketball, track, etc), would that be a "racist" statement? After all, it IS expressing a certain "belief" that there must be some sort of "superiority" at work. Otherwise, it is just random coincidence.
But anyway, please state what has been said that would give an impression of believing in "inferiority" as the word would be understood by a reaonable person...
But again, define "racism"? It is hard for anyone to defend against such a label/charge if they are not sure exactly what the heck it means!
Once again, it's a contentious issue. Being in an interracial marriage with interracial kids and grandkids, I'm acutely aware of this.
But I'm also a believer in logical discussion; and this demands that we admit that "racism" is a highly subjective term. It's about as scientific as asking "what is bad taste? or bad behavior? or stupidity, or poor judgement"?
ANY of these terms could be agreed upon, or not, according to context, and they aren't very scientific. One man's "piece of trash" is another man's "work of art"...and BOTH are sincere.
"Racism", as it's used in THIS society, USUALLY is understood to mean "white mistreatment, or dismissal, of NONWHITE". It's not generally accepted that, for example, a black mugger beating a white victim is a "racist". Or that the NAACP is a "racist" organization. "Racism", in its most common use, is a WHITE "sin". A few brave intellectually-honest souls will admit that blacks or hispanics are capable of racism, but many refuse to allow for this possibility.
The bottom line here is that racism cannot be addressed in wholly scientific terms, for it's not hard science we're dealing with here. Racism has to do with morals and ethics, good and evil; and its exact meaning will continue to remain the subject of debate.
Is it "racist" to note the large number of blacks in professional sports; or the fact that most serial killers are white, or that most illegal immigrants to the US are Mexican?...Yes, it might be "racist" to say these things--OR it may be simple statements of fact. It depends on who's saying it, HOW they're saying it, and the context in which it's being said.
Once again, it's a contentious issue. Being in an interracial marriage with interracial kids and grandkids, I'm acutely aware of this.
But I'm also a believer in logical discussion; and this demands that we admit that "racism" is a highly subjective term. It's about as scientific as asking "what is bad taste? or bad behavior? or stupidity, or poor judgement"?
ANY of these terms could be agreed upon, or not, according to context, and they aren't very scientific. One man's "piece of trash" is another man's "work of art"...and BOTH are sincere.
"Racism", as it's used in THIS society, USUALLY is understood to mean "white mistreatment, or dismissal, of NONWHITE". It's not generally accepted that, for example, a black mugger beating a white victim is a "racist". Or that the NAACP is a "racist" organization. "Racism", in its most common use, is a WHITE "sin". A few brave intellectually-honest souls will admit that blacks or hispanics are capable of racism, but many refuse to allow for this possibility.
The bottom line here is that racism cannot be addressed in wholly scientific terms, for it's not hard science we're dealing with here. Racism has to do with morals and ethics, good and evil; and its exact meaning will continue to remain the subject of debate.
Is it "racist" to note the large number of blacks in professional sports; or the fact that most serial killers are white, or that most illegal immigrants to the US are Mexican?...Yes, it might be "racist" to say these things--OR it may be simple statements of fact. It depends on who's saying it, HOW they're saying it, and the context in which it's being said.
Com'n Reb, get serious. You don't see the connection? Being deliberately obtuse?
Definition of Racism. "A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."
Title of Thread. "Why do some people refuse to admit the fact that there's possible relation between race and intelligence?"
Not So Subtle Implication. A particular race is more inherently more intelligent than other particular races. (Nobody has had the cajones to spit it out yet, so I am only assuming they are trying to say Whites are inherently more intelligent than other races.) Ducksberg, if this was not your assumption, then my apologies and I welcome your clarification.
The Part that everybody leaves out of course then is "Well, if one race is more intelligent, should not that race better stay in control of things and keep the other races down the way they always have been in the past? Should not we keep the races separate?" And then you tiptoe down the path to the Third Reich again.
Or if that is not the point... then what is the purpose of any of this discussion in the first place?
The problem again is there is absolutely no credible scientific evidence that would support such a statement. No playing genetic scientist and mumbo jumbo talk about the size of different people's breasts changes that fact. And without that, then there really is no discussion to have. (Not talking about the pseudo-science garbage that White Supremacists like to try to use as "proof"...talking about real peer reviewed science.)
Your point about African Americans is completely irrelevant. African Americans have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscles than Whites, which helps to provide them with a biological edge in the activities you mention. This is proven biological science. Apples and Oranges.
macmeal, I appreciate your societal and cultural commentary but I disagree with your assertions in this particular thread. Perhaps the general concept of racism can be discussed and debated and looked at in different ways, but if the title of the thread is "Why do some people refuse to admit the fact that there's possible relation between race and intelligence" I would suggest there had better be some hard science to back that up with. "Personal experiences" and anecdotes just don't cut it. I can tell you I have "personally" met some extremely intelligent Blacks and Hispanics, and also met my share of White Boys Dumber than Rocks. It does not mean anything.
Com'n Reb, get serious. You don't see the connection? Being deliberately obtuse?
No, I am just sick and tired of the word "racist" being used as a rhetorical roadblock to honest discussion. I am sure you are familiar with what is commonly known as "Alice in Wonderland", by Lewis Carol. The title was really "Through the Looking Glass". And Humpty Dumpty defined a "word" as meaning "no more, no less, than what I want it to mean..." (paraphrased)
This is how I see the application of the label "racism". It can mean ANYTHING! I am being "obtuse"??? Thing is, most of those very comfortable and smug with the label are not used to being challenged...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
Definition of Racism. "A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."
Title of Thread. "Why do some people refuse to admit the fact that there's possible relation between race and intelligence?"
Not So Subtle Implication. A particular race is more inherently more intelligent than other particular races. (Nobody has had the cajones to spit it out yet, so I am only assuming they are trying to say Whites are inherently more intelligent than other races.)
Yes, you are assuming that. I don't know one way or the other as it concerns what is commonly thought of as "intelligence". Perhaps Asians ARE inherently more intelligent than Caucasians. Are they? I, being a Caucasian, am not bothered if they are.
Is THAT a racist observation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
The Part that everybody leaves out of course then is "Well, if one race is more intelligent, should not that race better stay in control of things and keep the other races down the way they always have been in the past? Should not we keep the races separate?" And then you tiptoe down the path to the Third Reich again.
C'mon. That is ridiculous. In fact, if you want to do body counts, then it is the regimes that most espoused "equality" (Soviet Union, Communist China, etc) that dumped into the gulags and graveyards. I'd be the first to take up arms against any government which oppressed a minority group.
But back to the point..the ONLY thing I am saying is simply this: LET freedom of association reign. And IF some perceived level of intelligence is part of the reason, then? Hey, it is called freedom. It may be stupid, it may be bigoted, and I might agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
The problem again is there is absolutely no credible scientific evidence that would support such a statement. No playing genetic scientist and mumbo jumbo talk about the size of different people's breasts changes that fact. And without that, then there really is no discussion to have. (Not talking about the pseudo-science garbage that White Supremacists like to try to use as "proof"...talking about real peer reviewed science.)
*shrugs...and looks around baffled* So? I might agree. Then WHY the hysteria that greets this topic every damn time it comes up. If I were to say, out of the gotblessed blue that, "Asians tend to be lazy and shiftless and prone to think the world owes them a living...." I would get a guffaw and a horse laugh, even. On the other hand, if I were to say it as concerns other ethic groups, I could actually be fired from my job. And the vultures of righteousness would come down on me to pick the leavins'.
Does THAT indicate something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
Your point about African Americans is completely irrelevant. African Americans have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscles than Whites, which helps to provide them with a biological edge in the activities you mention. This is proven biological science. Apples and Oranges.
No, it isn't irrelevant. Although I am sure it is uncomfortable for you to make distinctions ala' the definition of racism. All I did was make an observation that any one alive and sentient knows. Which is that black men tend to excell in certain areas far beyond random chance. With me so far? The definition of "racism" is (as put) an inherent belief in the superiorty of one race over another.
I have no problem with that. The question becomes, then, if blacks excell in a certain area, whites in another, asians in one more, is that "racist" to speak the obvious?
While that side trip to the "races" was "interesting" is there any chance of getting back to intelligence being based on race or culture???
In another thread it was said that we use the term race incorrectly. Given that very few people are "purely" any one race, how can you do a test that would be legitimate? Doesn't everything have to be equal?
macmeal, I appreciate your societal and cultural commentary but I disagree with your assertions in this particular thread. Perhaps the general concept of racism can be discussed and debated and looked at in different ways, but if the title of the thread is "Why do some people refuse to admit the fact that there's possible relation between race and intelligence" I would suggest there had better be some hard science to back that up with. "Personal experiences" and anecdotes just don't cut it. I can tell you I have "personally" met some extremely intelligent Blacks and Hispanics, and also met my share of White Boys Dumber than Rocks. It does not mean anything.
Your criticism is taken with all due respect. BTW, I had YOU PERSONALLY in mind when I alluded to those folks "intellectually honest enough to admit blacks and Hispanics were capable of racism"....just so you know you're not forgotten
BTW, Bily4, I know you're a great respecter of discourse, so in that spirit--go back once more and read the title. It was "Why do some people refuse to admit"...etc etc.
My answer was that "they refuse to admit the POSSIBILITY, because of the questionable benefits, vs the tremendous harm that such info would likely be used for".. etc. My answer had nothing to do with whether or not there's hard evidence...it was more to the point that, even of there WAS hard evidene, such findings would be so narrowly-defined (what exactly IS intelligence, anyway?), and so wide-open to misuse by evil people, that I see no "good" that could come of such studies, nor ant precise way even to define your findings....
Keep keeping me on my toes.....
I should add (although, really, I should have to) that one of my very best friends is a black man. And my daughter is engaged to a man from Equador.
BUT..I believe what I believe and that is that.
If you want to impress your son-in-law, there's no "Q" in Ecuador---and your LAST sentence sounds curiously like another Texan we all know (from up around Crawford way). He ALSO "knows what he knows".
Just having fun with your post....
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